I will add that being a Christian in the deepest sense, having given my life to Him, I would be happy to engage in any hermaneutic debate with a YEC proponent. I find the arguments easily refutable and not based in scripture, but based in fantasy and having to “read between the lines”. I would find it more difficult to engage with a well meaning atheist than a YEC, the atheist would understand scripture better.
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If Satan can do this, then he has won and controls everything. Any hope for overcoming this is just Satan toying with us. Therefore, if God is anything like our conception, then this cannot be so.
As I said, this is conceding too much power to Satan, because it seems to rule out God. This is not a point I can argue at length, it just seems to be self defeating to meaningful belief.
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The theistic evolutionist feels the same about your OEC anti-evolutionary arguments.
In the end, you would never know if your conclusions are actually true.
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Not necessarily
But there are really only two options here, either God did it (creation) directly (YEC/OEC/EC/PC) or not (TE/AE).
AE = Atheistic Evolution.
TE = Theistic Evolution.
Then you don’t really know. YECs read the Bible too, but their conclusions differ from yours.
Teaching or believing a false teaching is a sin too.
They are doomed then. God demands total submission, so if you question whether he really performed certain miracles, then you are not fully submitting to him. You must genuinely believe he did those miracles.
I am not saying seeking knowledge is wrong, only that evolutionary theory could be wrong and YEC six-day creationism true. If that is the case, then Christians who affirm evolution are doomed.
So then you have your answer…the YEC interpretation of scripture is false.
You don’t really know this. You just think so. For all we know, Satan could be working behind the scenes to trick you into believing the earth is old.
I am not saying Satan controls everything, but those things that could be used to push Christians to biblical interpretations other than YEC ones. This happened with Job too: God allowed Satan to inflict Job with terrible events (including the death of his kids), but he was warned not to touch his life. A similar situation (to deceive) could be in place on a grander scale.
Of course not. I didn’t mean to imply this. 
… but those things that could be used to push Christians to biblical interpretations other than YEC ones.
Or to push anyone into anything.
This happened with Job too: God allowed Satan to inflict Job with terrible events (including the death of his kids), but he was warned not to touch his life. A similar situation (to deceive) could be in place on a grander scale.
Let’s hope Job was a one-off.
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So you’ve learned Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek?
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Believing in false teachings will not result in a loss of salvation as long as you believe the Gospel. We are not judged on how perfect our doctrine is. YEC is not part of the gospel. Even if it turns out to be true somehow, it’s not required to become a Christian and has never been a marker of orthodoxy.
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I don’t think so. If we are in the end times, then it becomes even more likely.
I hope you all are seeing the way I argued when I was a YEC 
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I disagree. False teachings are perverted forms of the Gospel (whatever it really was). When you are beguiled by a false teaching and go on to convert others to that teaching, then you are an apostate. YECs see other Christian groups that reject six-days creationism as apostate.
I never argued this. We are judged on whether what we believe in aligns with really what God says, that is, the truthfulness of our doctrines.
True, but it might matter deeply to God. What if God is vexed that TEs believe he did not directly fashion man? What if he sees this as taking his glory?
There are different levels of false teachings. False teachings which deny the core of the Gospel are not acceptable. But there are many secondary and tertiary matters which true Christians can disagree upon. Some YECs hold an extreme view that denies this, but they are simply wrong. Even on this forum we see a fair number of YECs who don’t think it’s a salvation issue.
When I wrote “perfect”, I meant it in the sense of “truthful”. We are not judged on whether every single bit of doctrine we believe is truthful or not. Our false beliefs may be a form of sin, but God does not hold sin against Christians, because we depend on Jesus’s righteousness, not our own righteousness.
We know that it doesn’t matter to God for salvation purposes because it has never been a marker of orthodoxy. You are just putting out hypotheticals without basis.
The creation of man is not a core part of the Gospel, but it is certainly a core part of the scriptures in general. My point is, if YECs are right that we were specially created, then it means common descent is a false teaching because it does not require any direct involvement of God in the creation of man. Thus, if YEC is true, evolutionary theory has practically taken away God’s glory in the creation of man and other life forms. We know what God does to those who try to steal his glory.
You don’t know if they are wrong Dan. Your interpretation of scripture makes you think they are wrong, the same way their interpretation makes them think you are wrong. True, science is on your side, but who knows whether Satan is using it to trick you?
A good majority do think its important to salvation. They believe evolutionary theory leads to abortion, homosexuality, greed and every other type of sin according to their YEC standards. Jesus says to pluck out one’s eyes, if they cause you to sin. Most YECs feel TEs have sinned by siding with science on evolution: they want you to pluck out those eyes.
I disagree. What doctrines we believe in are crucial to our salvation. For example, Hymenaeus believed in Jesus, but he equally believed the resurrection had already taken place, contradicting Paul. Paul condemned him for this.
Atheists and agnostics will be punished for rejecting the Gospel. Apostates too will be punished for perverting the Gospel. If theistic evolution is a perversion of the Gospel, then its adherents are doomed.
If that Christian intentionally teaches a false teaching, God will certainly hold that sin against the Christian.
How do you know it doesn’t matter to God and how do you know God doesn’t want it to be a marker of orthodoxy? Do you think just believing in Jesus is enough?
Yes, to espouse false doctrine because of our pride is a sin which is a form of idolatry. And the wages of sin is death (Romans 3:23). So I agree, in that sense we are doomed. As Paul says, “Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?” (Romans 7:24). The answer is in the next verse: “Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!” (v. 25a).
Maybe I’m wrong and being tricked. I can’t completely rule it out. I also can’t completely rule out that I’m a brain in a vat. Maybe I’m also wrong in believing that 1+1 = 2. Yet, the lack of complete certainty does not preclude us from having strong convictions regarding certain beliefs if we have good justification. As I said, simply bringing up the possibility that I might be wrong is not an argument.
Because believing in the future bodily resurrection of the dead is a marker of orthodoxy. It’s part of the Apostle’s Creed, for example. But you cannot find “The Earth is 6,000 years old” in any historical creed.
God doesn’t hold any of our sins against His beloved adopted children. If you don’t agree with this then we have different ideas of what the Gospel is, and that is more dangerous than any argument about YEC.
Historical reasons. I look at the major creeds and confessions of the church and none of them require belief in YEC. Those are the markers of orthodoxy which the church universal has affirmed.
Now, it’s possible that the whole church has been wrong about what God wants His people to believe, but as I said, simply bringing up this possibility without an argument to support it is not a valid objection.
I’m not sure if at this point you’re still roleplaying as your former YEC self or arguing sincerely, but I thought that this kind of historical argument should be quite familiar to someone from a Roman Catholic background?
I do now! 
AND thank you, this is insightful.
Don’t conflate scientific reasoning with religion. When it comes to religion (the theistic ones), all you need to justify your beliefs is faith. That’s why a religious person can say and do anything, and claim it’s divinely inspired. A scientist has no such freedom.
In a sense most Christians are like YECs. Modern physics forbids a massive object like an adult human from walking on water, but you believe Jesus and Peter did this, despite being a physicist (this might be a strawman, I stand to be corrected). There is no strong justification for you to believe it, but you do so anyway. Of course, you could side with science and posit these miracles were exaggerated and did not happen as they are described, but many Christians won’t take that.
That’s roughly how YECs feel when they encounter the gigantic evidence supporting evolutionary theory. Faith in the correctness of their interpretation of scripture is sufficient to get them through any perceived difficulties.
True.
True, but neither can we find any traces of theistic or guided evolution in any creeds. All these creeds affirm special creationism.
Are you saying that if I steal money from the church coffers as a Christian and I die before asking for forgiveness, that God won’t hold that sin of theft against me?
When those creeds were written, they required belief in special creationism. If you lived in those times, you would have been a creationist. Of course, there must have been diversity in the specific details, but creationism was certainly commonplace.
You could imagine claiming in those times that Augustine or Aquinas share a common ancestor with chimps, you might have been burnt alive.
Every theology whether mainstream or fringe, is a possibility among other possibilities. The only way to falsify a given theological claim is to ask God. Guess you know how that has turned out during the past 2000 years.
Its the latter. I reject YEC rejection of rigorously determined scientific theories, but I agree to an extent with their criticism of theistic evolution or guided evolution.
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That’s just not true, Michael. We can reason in religion as well, given certain basic assumptions. Just because something doesn’t have a scientific basis doesn’t mean that “everything goes”. This is not just unique to religion. There are many areas of inquiry which cannot be answered by scientific reasoning alone (such as ethics and morality), yet that doesn’t preclude rational argument about those areas.
Of course I believe it not because I think physics supports it, but because physics doesn’t support it: it was a miracle, and that was the point of the story. It showed that Jesus could overcome physics if He wanted to. Now, of course if I didn’t believe Jesus is the Son of God then I wouldn’t believe that story either. But if I accept the former, then the story is believable.
Show me where they affirm special creationism?
It seems that you are coming at this question from a Catholic viewpoint, where your salvific status changes back and forth based on whether you’ve gone to confession or not for your latest sin. But I don’t believe that at all. Once you are saved, then God forgives your past and future sins. “In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.” (Eph. 1:13-14).
Now, of course that doesn’t mean that you have complete freedom to steal money as a Christian. A true Christian is not judged by God for his or her sins, yet a true Christian will also be genuinely transformed and sanctified into one who does less in over time. If one claims to be a Christian and yet always keeps sinning constantly, then one can question whether that person is truly a Christian.
Just because most people believed in special creationism at the time doesn’t mean that the creeds required them. If that was required then it would be stated in the creed itself.
In addition, the distinction between “special” (i.e. supernatural) vs “natural” creation is also a modern, post-enlightenment one. It is anachronistic to apply to the creeds.
These hypotheticals have little value for our situation since none of it happened. We affirm actual creeds, not hypothetical ones. We view creeds as the outworking of God’s providence in church history to guide His sheep towards truth.
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Please provide biblical support for this. While it is clear that intending to lead someone away from the truth dooms a false teacher, and is therefore similar to sin in that the false teacher serves the father of lies and would not be approved…it is not clear that if you believe that person’s teaching you therefore sin, it only proves that you did not have the truth in you in the first place (John 3), just like the false teacher does not know the truth and is therefore condemned already. So, though it is not sin, it is also not something that a true believer would fall prey to. This is the message in 2 Peter and Jude. Just as you can tell a believer by their fruit, you can also tell a false teacher by their fruit.
Please provide biblical support for this. Though we are called to submit (James 4), and we are called to fear Him and Trust Him (Proverbs, Psalms, Ecclesiastes), it is not counted as sin or even as unrighteousness to question God. (Moses, Job, David, Solomon, even Jesus questioned the Father in His final statements, “why have you forsaken me?”). It is therefore not sin to question God, because Jesus was “without sin”. (Hebrews 4:15)
It sounds as though you are claiming that a belief other than what the bible states will either earn your salvation or exclude you from receiving salvation. If you believe that Jesus is your Lord and Savior, and that God the Father raised Him from the dead on the third day, you are good to go (Romans 10:9). Beyond that, you will be judged by Jesus for your actions. Only Jesus can determine your heart condition. So, for one person to tell another, “you won’t be saved because of “$#X>KDJHF””…they don’t know, only Jesus knows, He is the judge. But I am confident it won’t have anything to do with what anyone believes scientifically. There is room to believe in God/Spirit/Jesus and also in evolution without contradiction. Please provide scripture that says otherwise.
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