Evolutionary Science, not Darwinism

No, all I can see is that you’re confused.

He is. You must understand that evolutionary biology is a big subjecty, and nobody is an expert on all of it. Orr is an expert on speciation, genetics, Drosophila, and quite a few other things. He is not, however, an expert in systematics, paleontology, or the history of life.

It’s unreasonable to claim that this is a stark disagreement or that there is such a thing as an “official spokesperson”. Or for you to claim the mantle of “the public”.

I have no problem with that.

Whoever told you that?

You seem exceeding hysterical and long-winded here. Do you believe any of that, or are you just viewing with alarm?

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Amazing isn’t it? One scientist gets a small evolutionary detail wrong in an area which isn’t his specialty therefore all of evolution as presented to the lay public is wrong and should be halted. But our verbose friend isn’t an ID-Creationist, honest.

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Joshua and T. aquaticus, your scientific peers, and one or two others – all here on this site, in recent discussions. They have said that it is potential career death for a scientist to write a book when trying for tenure, and a suspect activity even after tenure is achieved. They have said that scientists who write books tend to be older ones, retired or near retirement. I was loudly chastised for defending the propriety of early to mid-career scientists writing books.

Then you have no problem with the public thinking of evolution as primarily “random mutation filtered by natural selection” – the very view Joshua and T. aquaticus have said is long outdated in actual evolutionary biology (due to neutral theory and other things). And by extension, you can’t object to ID folks responding to evolution understood as “random mutation filtered by natural selection”, since they are addressing the same general audience as Miller, Dawkins, Nye, etc. Yet Joshua has said that it is absurd for ID to respond to this outdated version of evolution. You can’t have it both ways: you can’t say that Miller, Dawkins, etc. are not seriously misleading the public about the mechanisms of evolution, and then turn around and say that ID people, when they characterize the mechanisms in exactly the same way, are seriously misleading the public. Either you have to reject that whole line of description (as I think Joshua consistently wants to do) or you have to allow it for both sides.

I actually have a much better idea of the public perception of science than do many scientists, narrowly researching in an ivory tower, who rarely if ever come out of their labs or their computer simulations to find out how the man on the street is thinking. It’s quite evident to me, after hundreds if not thousands of hours debating science Ph.D.s on these forums, that the majority of them “don’t get out much” and have a very hard time understanding the point of view of the non-scientist or even the well-educated scientific generalist.

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@swamidass and @T_aquaticus : did you say that?

I do think the problem is overblown. Now, in distinction to popular science writing, ID writing is intended to deceive and conceal, and that’s a problem.

Sorry, you’re still not the designated speaker for the public.

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As a general concept (variation and selection) for the lay public that version is still OK. Most lay people don’t understand special relativity either but still use Newton’s Laws of Motion even though technically they are inaccurate.

The problem is ID cherry-picks, misrepresents, and/or flat out lies about scientific findings to push their religious agenda. See Wells’ Icons of Evolution or Meyer’s Darwin’s Doubt for examples.

LOL! Sure you do. Just like you told us about those millions of angry parents protesting the teaching of evolution. Guess what your continued verbose hyperbole does to your credibility?

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I did not say that publishing a book is career death. Rather I said it raises questions about your research productivity, which can be answered of you are still doing research. The key thing is that a popular book is not an academic contribution.

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One of Joshua’s comments on books (hard to find, because it was under the discussion on heat-seeking missiles and teleology!) was this one:

"Books are common among a small proportion of scientists to present science to the public. This is almost always a controversial act in the field, that I myself will face when my book comes out. The vast majority of strong scientists never write book till they are retired. Anyone who does different starts at a deficit. It is not considered an academic contribution.

"There are exceptions. If you go into the distant past it was different. We, however, are not in the distant past. Also textbooks are respected, though they are not at all the most up to date work.

“So, in science, almost exclusively, books are for engaging the public, not for advancing the field.”

[Technical aside for Joshua: It would save a LARGE amount of time if there were a proper internal search engine for this site. There are now hundreds of posts, and thousands of comments. I cannot always remember where a comment was made, or who said it, but I could find any comment almost instantly if I could search the whole body of posts by keyword – within the site, without having to go outside for a clumsy Google Search which nets too many hits. Can a search engine be added, so that one could look up phrases and terms such as “peer-reviewed articles” or “Futuyma” or “teleology” or “Gonzalez” and find all comments on Peaceful Science where these phrases occur?]

Note that Joshua writes, This is almost always a controversial act in the field. Picking up on that point, or making it independently (I thought it was T. aquaticus, but I now think it was someone else), someone on another thread (purporting to speak for scientific practice) said of Gonzalez that the problem was not so much the contents of his book on fine-tuning as that he wrote a book at all. The clear meaning in context was that Gonzalez or anyone applying for tenure would be a fool to write a book and should concentrate on producing only peer-reviewed articles. The same person, or another, said that books, regardless of their contents, would routinely be held against the author.

Now, back to Joshua’s comment. Yes, he put qualifications on the comment, which I appreciated. However, in the original discussion I pointed out to him that many books by scientists were not intended for the lay public, but to advance the field, e.g., Wagner’s book on Genes and Homology. I also pointed out to him or to T. aquaticus that Futuyma himself indicated that he read many books written by evolutionary theorists, which he would not do if he did not think that doing so was of professional value to him. If Futuyma, who ranks high on the scale of evolutionary theorists in the USA, thinks that books on evolutionary can advance the discussion in a field and are worth reading by professional evolutionary theorists like himself, then I think it’s reasonable to say that books by scientists are not merely a means to popularization but also a means of advancing the field.

True, Joshua did not use the phrase “career death.” I was summarizing the gist of several commenters who were saying on one of the threads that Gonzalez invited criticism merely by the act of publishing a book; and since he was up for tenure, then if the existence of any book by him endangered the possibility of getting tenure, then it posed the possibility of career death. So I don’t impute the phrase to Joshua or to any poster here in particular, but the message that came across clearly in several posts was that young scientists seeking tenure should stay away from writing books.

This is all I will say regarding the clarification of my meaning regarding the writing of books by scientists.

The point about writing books was a side-point to the more general point about popularizations of evolution being defective. And on that point Joshua and others have definitely and repeatedly said that the older neo-Darwinism is now theoretically outmoded and therefore ID is wasting time in attacking it. So my point remains: why does the ID attack on seem convincing to many of the lay public? In part it’s because the people ID are attacking do write out of the very conception of how evolution works that Joshua, T. aquaticus and others have said is outmoded. And they are not the only ones who have said this. Stuart Newman, an evolutionary theorist, has said the same thing regarding the popular conception of evolution as it was championed by Miller, etc. during the Dover trial.

I don’t myself find that the statements of MIller and Dawkins always misrepresent the field, but my point is that the plane on which Miller, Dawkins, Coyne, Venema, Falk, Giberson and others debate Behe, Dembski, Meyer, etc. is the plane of old-fashioned meat-and-potatoes neo-Darwinism, so if the ID folks are to be bashed for operating on that plane, so should the others. But we’ve already been over this ground. I’ll leave this point at that.

Controversial for precisely the reason I just laid out.

As already explained, it’s because ID uses cherry-picked data, misrepresentations, and outright lies about actual scientific findings to gull those in the lay public who lack the background knowledge to know they’re being lied to. That’s why ID pushers like Behe, Dembski, Meyer, etc. only publish in the popular press and not the primary scientific literature. They know their ID pseuso-science wouldn’t last a minute under critical scientific review. The IDers don’t care of course because their goal has never been to convince the scientific community of ID’s worthiness. The goal has always been just sow enough doubt in the lay public to get their religion back into public school science classes.

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There are at least two things that I find annoying about your recent posts. 1) Frequent hyperbole, apparently not intended as hyperbole, as in this bit about “career death”, and 2) Great, unnecessary length.

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You’re not obliged to read any of my posts, if they don’t appeal to you. But I have things I find annoying about your posts, too, such as your apparent lack of interest in the purpose of this website, which is not to promote materialistic, atheistic science, or to exterminate ID or creationism, but to interrelate science and faith in new and creative ways. I would find your posts more constructive if they less reflected the academic indignation of the science professional and more reflected an inquiring mind, open to all religious and philosophical possibilities for the interpretation of nature. But of course, you aren’t obliged to produce such posts, and I can always stop reading your comments if I choose. So if we can’t please each other, let’s not worry about it, and read the posts of others instead.

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Everyone, is this thread coming to the end of its usefulness?

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There’s no such thing as “atheistic science”. By thinking so you disqualify yourself from any serious discussion on scientific topics.

As far as “materialistic” science, please describe how to do “non-materialistic” science which must make allowances for undetectable and unrepeatable supernatural meddling. Creationists are always bleating about materialism in science but can never say how to do science otherwise.

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I did not mean that science as such has to be materialistic or atheistic. But science, especially regarding origins issues, has often been framed in an atheistic way by loud public figures claiming to draw out the logical results of “science.” It is to such framings of evolution, and of science generally, to which I was referring.

How do you do non-materialistic science? You whined about it so you must know a better way. Please enlighten us.

Pure unadulterated Creationist bullcrap. You’ve got a handful of atheists like Dawkins saying science disproves God and 99% of scientists saying science is neutral on God. Why do you have to constantly rely on ridiculous hyperbole to try and score your cheap ID-Creationist talking points?

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@swamidass

Joshua asked:

After which Tim Horton wrote (emphasis added):

My answer to Joshua’s question is, “Yes, quite obviously.”

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Since Eddie continues to dodge all questions about the ID-Creationist anti-science claims he makes, I must agree.

It is creationists who frame science as atheistic.

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And materialistic. Yet every time they are asked how to do non-materialistic science they always find somewhere else to be.

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It is usually more nuanced than that. Usually they have no objection to 95% of modern science. Their objections all center on the application of science to origins questions.

Anyhow, I personally have never framed science as atheistic. Last year I taught a course on religion and the rise of modern science in which I argued that modern science (with its characteristic differences from Greek and Islamic science), far from being atheistic, grew up in a Christian environment and was positively supported and encouraged by the Church, almost always. The exceptions to this are very few, and even those exceptions (e.g., the Galileo case) when looked at by serious modern historians, are not nearly as clear-cut as they seem. Galileo had Christian supporters, and Galileo’s arrogant manner contributed much to the Church’s reaction to him.

There is no doubt, however, that websites where the topic is “origins” seem to attract a large number of champions of science who frame the discoveries of science atheistically. I have seen such framing on Panda’s Thumb, TalkOrigins, Recursivity, Pharyngula, Dawkins’s fan sites, Uncommon Descent, BioLogos, Telic Thoughts, etc.

And of course there are Monod, Dawkins, Provine, Coyne, Myers, Shallit, Krauss, Weinberg, Hawking, etc. – the list goes on and on. It is not just creationists who frame science atheistically. Many anti-creationists do the same.

I see science as uncovering the intricate and astounding order of the universe. There is no inherent contradiction between intricate and astounding order and religious teaching about Creation. Indeed, someone who believes in Creation would expect an intricate and astounding order. But “creationism” in normal parlance goes beyond “belief in Creation” to embrace a whole mess of things that are not required by the Bible, by Christian tradition, etc. It thus frequently runs afoul of science. That’s unfortunate.

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