GAE & Tasmania

GAE’s main discussion of Tasmania seems to be this paragraph:

Tasmania is a large island in the present day, and it presents the strongest case for genealogical isolation. It was settled tens of thousands of years ago, while it was connected to Australia by a large land bridge that was submerged by rising seas by about fourteen thousand years ago, and difficult to cross by about ten thousand.19 As evidence of this difficulty, dingoes came to Australia four thousand years ago, but to Tasmania much later. There, nonetheless, remain several habitable islands between Tasmania and Australia. Using these islands as a broken bridge, the crossing might still be possible, though difficult, perhaps with the same sort of boats that enabled colonization of Australia in the first place. The real question is if the barriers prevented all mixing. Even if mixing was limited to rare events, universal ancestors arise. For this reason, we cannot know for sure if and when small amounts of migration took place to Tasmania. The oral tradition of Aborigines, to this day, retains ten-millennia-old memories of when the seas rose.20 They would have known that Tasmania existed across the strait, for example, four thousand years ago. It seems reasonable to wonder if at least one boat managed the crossing every century or so. In this case, I grant that skepticism is reasonable, and informed scientists might disagree. We cannot say for sure, nonetheless, one way or another. Future work, however, could settle the question. The remains of dingoes in Tasmania, if dated to 3,000 years ago, for example, would demonstrate there was exchange across the strait. Whole-genome studies of ancient DNA from Tasmanians, also, could demonstrate migration from Australia, perhaps against expectation. Right now, however, evidence does not tell us for sure.

Can I disprove these claims? No. Have I reason to be cautious, and perhaps even skeptical, of them? I think I may have reasons:

  1. Joshua makes no mention, beyond the assumption that they retained the technology for “the same sort of boats that enabled colonization of Australia in the first place”, of Australian Aboriginal boat-building technology.
  • From this, it seems that they did have some technology. “In northern Australia, dug-out canoes are used to travel across open water. Carved from a single log, they are propelled by a square, pandanus sail. In northern Queensland, outriggers are attached to canoes to improve stability.” However in the north you have tropical rainforests for larger, straighter trees, a large number of close islands (e.g. those of the Great Barrier Reef) and calmer seas. In the south, they appear to have had only bark canoes which “primarily, they are used for river travel or for reaching nearby islands.”
  1. Calling the Bass Strait islands “habitable” is vague, and may be misleading. AFAIK, only one of them, Flinders Island, had ever been inhabited in pre-European times, and that population died out 4,500 years ago (shortly before the Indian influx into mainland Australia).

  2. Bass Strait is situated in the Roaring Forties, and is described by Wikipedia as:

Like the rest of the waters surrounding Tasmania, and particularly because of its limited depth, it is notoriously rough, with many ships lost there during the 19th century.

  • I have not traveled Bass Strait, but I have traveled Foveaux Strait off the south of New Zealand, by boat. Based on that experience, I would suggest that attempting to navigate such waters in a bark canoe would foolhardy in the extreme.
  1. Given the marginal nature (to say the least) of pre-European navigation of Bass Strait, and the fact that Australian Aboriginals relationship with dingoes has been described as "
    commensalism
    " rather than true domestication, it would seem likely that dingoes were self-introduced to Tasmania rather than than being brought over by bark canoe.

    Addendum: it appears that no dingo remains have been found in Tasmania, so it seems that mention of them in the book was purely speculative.

  2. Although “the oral tradition of Aborigines, to this day, retains ten-millennia-old memories of when the seas rose” it does not follow that “they would have known that Tasmania existed across the strait, for example, four thousand years ago”. That they retained (some) memories does not demonstrate that they retained this specific memory.

I think now would be a good time to attempt to resurrect this thread as the more appropriate place for this discussion.

Yes, and I covered this with the above quotation:

In northern Australia, dug-out canoes are used to travel across open water. Carved from a single log, they are propelled by a square, pandanus sail. In northern Queensland, outriggers are attached to canoes to improve stability.

The article I cited did not however indicate any specifically “sea-going craft” in Southern Australia, nor any vessels beyond bark canoes “primarily, they are used for river travel or for reaching nearby islands.”. I had also seen indications that Tasmanian aborigines used a type of bark canoe:


[Source]

Addendum: I have since come across this categorisation:

The ethnographic canoes of the East Coast can be grouped into four broader categories.
• Dugout seafaring canoe of north Queensland,
• Stitched bark seafaring canoe of the central and southern coast of Queensland,
• Folded-ends bark canoe, unsuitable for sea-travel, of southeast Australia,
• Bundle of bark or reed canoe of maritime-design of Tasmania,

SE Australian bark canoes are described as:

Bark canoes with very low folded ends in south-east Australia are strongly associated with ancient bark technology, visible in containers of this region. They were designed for coastal lakes, bays and estuaries, not for sea navigation. These canoes may have their roots in the period when the current coastline was formed and stabilised in about 7,000 years ago.

[My emphasis]

The Tasmanian ‘canoes’ are described as:

Unlike other Aboriginal canoes, the Tasmanian type is not a vessel – a large container – but a combination of bark or reed bundles made into maritime watercraft. It typically carried 4-6 passengers and occasionally 7-8 people ‘with dogs and spears.’ This canoe may have been used at least 6,000 years ago to visit Bruny Island, but possibly much earlier, as Tasmanians were unable (or unwilling) to borrow the idea of bark canoes from their mainland brothers after Tasmania was separated from the mainland about 10,000 years ago.

[Source]

This would indicate that SE Australia → Tasmania travel would be unlikely. It is not clear how this affects Tasmania → SE Australia travel. The dissimilarity between their vessels may indicate a lack of contact between them.

King Island is not altogether surprising, as it is closer to Tasmania than to the mainland. I have however not seen any confirmation to date of this. This article may provide more information, but is behind a paywall:

https://www.jstor.org/stable/40287003

It would seem to me unlikely that Tasmanian aborigines “travelled by sea to Western Australia”, given the large distance (approximately 3000km) and adverse prevailing winds. Can you give a citation?

Again, a citation would be useful please.

No George. I stated:

I then posted this map:

That appeared nothing like your (first) cluttered, unrecognisable map:

No George.

The second map you posted was this one:

This map is identical to your first one.

I will note here that is unclear what this map adds to the conversation. Both Joshua’s book, and my OP above already mention these islands. And your “avg 24 miles each” does not add useful information – it would be (i) the longest individual leg, (ii) the total distance traveled, (iii) identity of the start and end points of each ‘leg’, (iv) the availability of embarkation/debarkation sites at these points (you would need a beach, or similar, not a cliff), and (v) availability of shelter, fresh water and food at the intermediate points, that would be more useful.

Addendum: does this mapped journey take us all the way to Tasmania, or just to Flinders Island?

I am also confused how the average leg can be 24 miles, but the “longest island hop of about 21 miles” – how can the longest leg be shorter than the average leg?

  1. The fact that it is “the ONLY way” does not necessitate that it would be a viable way.

  2. Citation please for your “3.5 mph” number. Was it measured in calm water (e.g. a lake or lagoon) or in sea-going conditions? What sort of canoe was employed?

  3. What evidence do you have that “smoke trails on the edge of the world (Tasmania)” would be visible from the mainland?

Have you accounted for the strong tidal currents that affect Bass Strait:

image

Bass Strait is a region of notoriously rough water approximately 250 km wide and 500 km long situated between the mainland coast of Australia and the north coast of the island of Tasmania. There are two tidal cycles a day with one having an larger range than the other. Generally speaking the flood tide flows inwards from both sides of the Strait towards the middle.

[Source]

  1. How much provisions, in excess of what are needed for the journey itself, can be stored in a bark canoe, without dangerously overloading it for sea-going conditions?

  2. What is the cost-benefit payoff of such a multiple-stage journey, involving preparatory trips to stage provisions?

  3. How long do these preparatory trips extend the window of calm weather for, that would require suspension of the Roaring Forties, and eventually suspension of the laws of physics underlying them?

Good question.

The Hogan Group is apparently only “40 kilometres (25 mi) southeast of Wilsons Promontory” and Hogan Island “has a maximum elevation of 116 metres”.

One of the higher points on Wilsons Promontory appears to be Mt Oberon at 558m, which appears to be 60km from Hogan Island.

This would appear to make the island visible, even given the curvature of the Earth, but probably only on a very clear day. (But somebody might need to check the math & distances.)

Addendum:

A more important question would be:

How would our intrepid adventurer(s) know that it would be a ‘providential’ time to cross Bass Strait, and therefore know to make the attempt (particularly as their vessels were “unsuitable for sea-travel”)?

Isn’t Tasmania->Australia travel irrelevant?

Tasmanians travelling to Australia can’t result in Tasmanians having A&E ancestry. Tasmanians travelling to Australia and back again conceivably[1] could, but you’d need that return trip to be made by a pregnant woman, which reduces the likelihood considerably.


  1. Pun intended. ↩︎

Hmmm.

4 key legs avg 24 miles each”. “Length 86.01mi”.

Something’s not right. 4*24 is 96, not 86.

To GAE, yes. To @Tedinoz’s “Tasmanian aborigines are known to have travelled by sea to Western Australia and King Island”, it would appear relevant.

I was assuming 86km direct, 96km island-hopping. This however may not be all the way to Tasmania, but only to Flinders Island.

@Tim has already pointed out above that Hogan Island would likely be visible from Mt Oberon on Wilsons Promontory.

Rodondo Island would appear no closer to the islands that would be required to ‘island-hop’ to Tasmania than Wilsons Promontory itself, as well as being “ringed by steep cliffs up to 200 metres (660 ft) high” (making it little suited for landing in a canoe) – it is therefore irrelevant.

But as the vessels of the aboringines of SE Australia are “unsuitable for sea-travel”, all of this is irrelevant

I think it is worth a closer look on whether calm seas in Bass Strait could be brought about by merely ‘providential’ weather conditions.

In reading up on sea conditions in Bass Strait, I found that those conidtions depended not only on local winds, driven in turn by the Roaring Forties, but also by Ocean Swells generated by wind conditions (generated by the same planetary rotation that causes the Roaring Forties) over the entire 'Southern Ocean, maximally defined. This would mean that calm conditions in Bass Strait, would require both (i) suspension of wind over the entire Southern Ocean, and (ii) for that suspension to be long enough for the swells to dissipate.

Thereafter, one or more aborigines would need to be compelled to travel to Tasmania, in their apparently “unsuitable for sea-travel” canoes, in an act that would seem out of character for their culture (which seems more centered around preservation of the known, than exploration of the unknown).

At this point I would have to say that simply teleporting an aborigine to Tasmania would seem a far smaller and far less intrusive miracle.

Using the Earth Curvature Calculator I linked to above, only the top 10m of the highest point of Hogan Island would be visible from sea level on the Wilsons Promontory coast 40km away – a tiny speck (or more likely blur) on the horizon. This would make navigating to it very difficult, particularly given Bass Strait’s tidal currents.

Addendum:

The nearest coastline of Tasmania is 200km away from Wilson’s Promontory. Using the same Earth Curvature Calculator, at this distance, something would have to be 1000m high to be observable from Mt Oberon. The highest point in Tasmania, Mount Ossa is 1,617m but is considerably further away, and would still be well below the horizon. It therefore seems highly unlikely that @gbrooks9’s “smoke trails” (it is unclear whether he is talking about cooking fires or bush fires) would be visible from the mainland, let alone distinguishablr from clouds at this extreme distance.

At this stage, the Tasmanian Adventure is beginning to resemble this quote from Douglas Adams:

If you’ve done six impossible things this morning, why not round it off with breakfast at Milliways, the restaurant at the end of the universe?

So it is possibly a good place to stop, at least unless and until any new countervailing information comes to light.

With a liberal understanding of Providence - - as Christians mean the word - - a decades long sequence of storms and calm waters, of human passion and human curiosity, can easily be imagined that lands a few men on the main island of Tasmania.

The image above shows how as one reaches one island … one or two new islands become visible. Tasmania eventually comes into view. I’ve read that on the open ocean the horizon is about 25 miles away - - this puts the BIG island, Flinders Island, just 9 miles offshore from Tasmania, four horizons away from Australia.

Only if by “a liberal understanding of Providence - - as Christians mean the word” you mean suspension of the laws of physics over a large portion of the Earth’s surface. And this is NOT “new countervailing information”, as it has already been rebutted:

No, according to the Earth Curvature Calculator, near sea level (1m elevation – and somebody paddling a canoe would be no higher) it is about 3.6km away.

As to your map, I would point out that it failed to answer my previous questions:

Given your recent mention of Rodondo Island, (iv) is of particular importance.

To which I would add (vi) the elevation of each of these intermediate points, so it can be calculated whether a navigator could see them from sea level.

@tim ,

No, not the suspension of natural laws, but God’s engagement of natural laws.

I know you struggle with Christian terms. But many Christians frequently mean Providence as God’s will being worked out through natural law, not through super-natural miracles - - except for the miracle(s) at the Big Bang when God’s plans for the Universe were imprinted somewhere in the metaphysical fabric of the Universe.

Quotes:

Dictionary: Definitions from Oxford
“the protective care of God
OR of nature as a spiritual power.”

“God or nature
as providing protective or spiritual care.”

Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Scott Hoezee
Mainly, providence means God is aware of what is happening in any given person’s life. He is invested in how things go for us. By his Spirit he is able to steer us, move us, clarify things for us, and motivate us to make decisions on a career or a marriage partner or any number of things. And all of this somehow serves God’s larger plans. God provides. Many things do not just “happen” randomly but serve a purpose. How Involved is God?
Folks vary in their beliefs about what counts as providential and what doesn’t. Some seem to believe God micromanages every single event right down to the toss of the dice or whether your apple pie will turn out or not. Others see God as deeply involved in our world and in our lives.

Xxxxxxxxxxxx

What is a biblical example of providence?
“Surely the wrath of man shall praise thee” (Ps. 76:10). Joseph being sold into bondage by his brothers gives an example of God’s providential working. Although Joseph’s brothers sought to get rid of him, God used their wrath to bring Joseph to a place where he could save his family.

Yes George, outright suspension of the laws of nature.

This is one of those places where science informs theology.

Let me lay it out to you. Take a circle of ocean from approximately the 40th parallel south (approximately the southern coast of Australia) to Antarctica. Let us label this, only slightly inaccurately, as the ‘Southern Ocean’. The only land masses of any size in this area is New Zealand, the southern tip of South America and the Antarctic Peninsula.

The rotation of the Earth transfers kinetic energy to the atmosphere in the form of winds. Unless these winds were to constantly increase in speed (presumably to eventually match the speed of Earth’s rotation), this energy needs to be ‘dumped’ somewhere. Lacking any significant land masses into which to dump it, a significant amount of energy will constantly have to be dumped into the sea, in the form of oceanic swells. Yes, these prevailing winds can temporarily be disrupted and diverted, e.g. by a temporary atmospheric condition like an anticyclone, but only at the expense of higher winds nearby (which will in turn dump more energy into the sea as swells). This means that, even if you have localised spots of atmospheric calm, due to oceanic swells being a non-localised phenomenon, you will never see calm wave conditions in the Southern Ocean.

The only way to avoid this is to either violate the laws of nature to prevent the Earth’s rotation from transferring energy (as wind) to the atmosphere, or prevent wind from transferring energy (as ocean swells) to the sea, over the entirety of the Southern Ocean. I.e. a wholesale violation of the laws of physics over a sizeable portion of the Earth’s surface.

As I stated before:

@Tim (@admins)

What are doing here? You are arguing against everything and everybody … and are you even a marine physicist?

You better be praying that your position is bullet proof - - because if it isnt your intentions are going to be way more obvious than your intelligence!

Thank you George for the argumentum an hominem fallacy. :roll_eyes:

You are welcome to read up and try to poke holes in my argument.

I’ve spent 5 decades living near the sea in the Roaring Forties, and have seen the ocean nearly every day during that time. It was never calm.

1 Like