This is true of a lot of Christian experience. Very conservative or fundamentalist Churches do not prepare their adherents for life in the real world. What the Church is saying does not line up with what many Christians are actually experiencing. Thus, disillusionment sets in and then abandonment.
Dr. Francis Collins had this to say:
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Excellent! Thanks for that!
-Kerry
Welcome @Beckett (Kerry)!
A Global Flood has a lot of physical requirements and consequences that make it not feasible scientifically - unless you allow a number of miracles to solve the problems - but that removes the whole point of a scientific theory. Even a âgentleâ flood as you suggest would involve an enormous amount of water, and an enormous amount of heat.
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We should find a global layer of sediment, and any bits of organic material in that layer should have the same carbon date. We should also see clear interruptions of sensitive annual processes, such as an interruption of growth in preserved forests, interruption of lake varves, interruption of coral growth, and interruption of ice deposition in glacial regions. We donât see an interruption in any of these records.
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You can say that only if you define âhumanâ in a way that excludes all the people outside Mesopotamia, which would be most of the worldâs people. How do you define âhumanâ?
And thatâs why we should first try to define ×××× instead.
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Obviously. Not a problem
The math is inflated. Heat is not a problem
Funny. When you do ever date sedimentary deposits?
Now you are bringing up a few real problems. Much of this can be explained, however.
This one is hard. Havenât figured this one out yet.
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Well, of course a global flood couldnât actually have taken place. Where would the water come from? Where would it go to? Thereâs never been a time in the Phanerozoic in which all land was submerged. Now if it had happened regardless, how would it have happened? How would you even answer that question?
Well, you could have a global flood (again, assuming that you could, which you couldnât) that lacked some of the effects AiG wants. It could conceivably avoid a huge deposit of sediment. But I donât see how it could avoid a mass extinction.
Iâm aware. So? Theyâre just stories, and they all supposedly took place long before the stories were recorded, not during historical times, not around 2000 BC when the flood supposedly happened. And yes, there were people all over the world, at least three groups literate: Mesopotamians, Egyptians, and Chinese.
Thatâs because a global flood of any sort would be impossible without a hefty dose of miracles. The bit about leaving no traces is necessary because we see no traces of such a flood.
No. In principle, no global flood could have occurred.
I think a better argument could be made that itâs just a legend, with no basis in any real event, adapted for religious purposes from the similar Sumerian story.
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As I used to write in red pen when grading those little blue booklets so long ago: âShow your work. Letâs see the numbers.â
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You can date the plant and animal debris in the sedimentary layer using carbon dating (50,000 year upper limit).
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Thank you. I appreciate the helpful comments. A âgentle floodâ was pretty funny. Maybe I can suggest that to AIG : )
My original post was just expressing a thought that popped into my head.
Thanks again!
-Kerry
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Beckett:
Personally, I think a good argument can be made from Scripture itself that Noahâs flood was a local phenomena expressed in hyperbole for theological purposes.
I think a better argument could be made that itâs just a legend, with no basis in any real event, adapted for religious purposes from the similar Sumerian story.
That doesnât surprise me. I disagree. Iâve read those arguments and remain unimpressed. There is no reason there could not have been a real event behind the Biblical story. I recommend: The Lost World of the Flood by Tremper Longman and John Walton. Also very interesting is the work of William Ryan and Walter Pitman concerning a possible flood in the Black Sea area. Of course the writer of Genesis adopted this event for theological reasons, but if nothing happened, the theological message loses its legitimacy. The Biblical writers did not simply make up stories to support a theological doctrine, neither did they just steal the Summerian story and make it their own. If there was a great flood of some large proportion we would expect to see elements of the actual event in other cultures.
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You can say that only if you define âhumanâ in a way that excludes all the people outside Mesopotamia, which would be most of the worldâs people. How do you define âhumanâ?
This is not about the definition of âhumanâ. In my belief, every Prophet or Messenger was sent only to warn certain people except the Prophet and the last Prophet Muhammad PBUH which was universal. Of course the Prophet Noah PBUH was sent specifically for humans or communities or certain people (their people) or their world (location) at that time. Of course, assuming that before the era of 3500 BCE, that is, before the era of Sumerian civilization, China, Babylon, or Egypt and so on, which you mentioned in the previous statement. Thus the âhumanâ population is assumed to be concentrated in Mesopotamia only.
Well, regarding the definition of human, it is all the descendants of Prophet Adam PBUH.
There may be other descendants of the Prophet Adam PBUH who were outside Mesopotamia at that time (assumption). You may be right about âhumansâ outside Mesopotamia.
After checking the Quran itself, I havenât come across the idea that âonlyâ the descendants of Prophet Noah PBUH will repopulate the whole world (correct me if iâm wrong).
Quran Surah As-Saffat (Those Ranged In Ranks); 37: 74-79
37:74 EXCEPT for Godâs true servants, [most people are apt to go astray.] 28 (37:75) And, indeed, [it was for this reason that] Noah cried unto Us - and how excellent was Our response: ( 37:76) for We saved him and his household from that awesome calamity, 29 (37:77) and caused his offspring to endure [on earth]; (37:78) and We left him thus to be remembered, 30 among later generations: (37:79) âPeace be upon Noah throughout all the worlds!â
Quran Surah Hud (11); 11:48
11:48 [Thereupon] the word was spoken: "O Noah! Disembark in peace from Us, 71 and with [Our] blessings upon thee as well as upon the people [who are with thee, and the righteous ones that will spring from thee and] from those who are with thee.72 But [as for the unrighteous] folk [that will spring from you] - We shall allow them to enjoy life [for a little while], and then there will befall them grievous suffering from Us. "
I have no idea what youâre saying. Are you saying that the people outside Mesopotamia at that time werenât human or that there were no people outside Mesopotamia? The first requires a strange definition (which you say you arenât doing) and the latter is just contrary to everything we know about human populations.
The question is who, among all the people in the world, would be descendants of Adam. Anyway, there was no flood that wiped out all the people in Mesopotamia either.
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It was over 10 years ago that I contacted Glenn Morton. Aside from the question of the age of the earth I wanted to know why he had caved to evolution. How did it follow that an old planet elicits that kind of capitulation of first principles regarding faith and the clear written text of Scripture? Sadly, nothing in his reply back to me answered my question. He, as most do who turn away from YEC to evolution, avoided a real answer and tried to bring the discussion back around to an old planet.
That is why @thoughtful is probably very near correct here. Somehow when YECs begin to express doubts about the age of the earth, their faith falters and âŚstrangely (at least to me)âŚthen feel somehow compelled to go âall inâ and embrace an evolutionary paradigm.
I am still perplexed and completely baffled at this kind of reasoning. Evolution simply does not follow from belief in an old planet. Glenn Morton thought it did. I can only guess that he must have reasoned that he had no choice in the matter.
9 posts were split to a new topic: Speir Was Right on Glenn Morton
I have no idea what youâre saying. Are you saying that the people outside Mesopotamia at that time werenât human or that there were no people outside Mesopotamia? The first requires a strange definition (which you say you arenât doing) and the latter is just contrary to everything we know about human populations.
OK. Noted.
So what was the estimated number of human population at that time? Say over period about 10,000 BCE. How about its distribution around the world (either within Mesopotamia or outside Mesopotamia)? Do you have any good source that I can read?
Iâve seen estimates of around 100,000,000. People were almost everywhere: all continents except Antarctica, all major islands except Iceland, Greenland, and Polynesia. There were people all over the Americas, north to south. You could probably google.
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Iâve seen estimates of around 100,000,000. People were almost everywhere: all continents except Antarctica, all major islands except Iceland, Greenland, and Polynesia. There were people all over the Americas, north to south. You could probably google
2.43 millions
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