I was quickly, on Wikipedia, able to find estimates for 2000 BC of 72 million and 27 million. And again, nobody claims they were all collected in Mesopotamia. Your estimate is for 10,000 BC. Why?
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10,000 BC seems cool! Sounds like a popular movie.
Note: Actually, all the estimation data on google stop at 10,000 BCE. No data at 23Kya.
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But the flood was supposed to be around 2000 BC, right? At any rate, there was never, no matter how far back you go, when humans were limited to Mesopotamia. There was a time when they were limited to Africa, but I doubt youâre interested in that, and it was way too long ago anyway.
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But the flood was supposed to be around 2000 BC, right? At any rate, there was never, no matter how far back you go, when humans were limited to Mesopotamia. There was a time when they were limited to Africa, but I doubt youâre interested in that, and it was way too long ago anyway.
The Quran does not specify the date of the local flood. But what is certain is that the local flood was a big event so that it attracted the attention of many civilizations such as Akkadian and Sumerian to create its story, or at least make it a legendary tale, and also retold in many holy books such as the Bible and the Quran. Of course the local flood (if according to science occurred), long before the time of the Akkadian and Sumerian civilizations, maybe occurred during the fertile crescent phase or location, or a place like the Gobekli Tepe Site and so on.
Likewise, what happened when the tsunami hit Aceh, Sumatra in 2004, many local records do not say when the year it occurred. These notes can be in the form of poetry or local manuscripts/culture to warn us what to do if a similar incident recurs in order to survive. Most people have forgotten, although there are some places where this tradition still exist, for example, go up to a high place if an earthquake happened and there is low tide, far from the shore. In one study, at least several times the coast of Aceh was hit by a tsunami.
https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms16019
So it is interesting to know what the estimated population size in Mesopotamia was at that time, the estimated year of occurrence, and so on, trying to relate the small pieces of explanation by science (what scientists can understand today).
Itâs difficult to determine what story youâre trying to sell here. I canât assemble a coherent narrative from the disjointed bits you provide.
The laws of physics are not on your side here. There is no good answer to the laws of physics that do not involve miracle of enormous magnitude. This is apologetics, sort of, but no kind of science.
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I have followed Jesus since 2003. I believe real experimental/operational/observational science doesnât contradict Scripture, but confirms and supports it. I believe our devotion to Jesus should not rest on the age of the earth or other issues. It should rest on understanding oneâs sinfulness, the hope of the Good News of the Kingdom and Jesusâ resurrection for our eternal life & justification!
I have been following this debate for many years. One big regret I have is that some YEC proponents use rude language, name calling etc. Ad hominem is a fallacy, right?
It is not what the Scriptures call us to!
We are called to speak the âtruth in loveâ. The famous 1 Pet 3:15 âbut sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverenceâ is such a powerful indictment against rudeness and name-calling!!!
Jesus told us how people wound know we are His followers in John 14: âA new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. âBy this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.â
We must repent and stop attacking one another, but exhort one another in love. WE must correct what we believe is false or incorrect, but never attack people.
I would say that YEC position is the one I hold to currently, but I am open to the OEC. Billions of years just doesnât make sense in light of Scripture, to me of course 
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The evidence for a recent earth appears convincing to me from Scripture & other areas of science. Gen 1 does say that God gave Adam & Eve and the animals plants for food, not other animals. Omnivorous behavior came after the flood. So, death of animals over millions of years before the fall of Adam doesnât fit here. The historicity of Adam is heavily emphasized in the NT by Jesus and the apostles.
The genealogy of Jesus in Luke goes historically right to Adam, which would not stretch to millions or even hundreds of thousands of years.
God appears to be telling us something here!!!
Reb blood cells in dinosaur bones point to a recent age of these creatures. There is historical data that people walked with âdragonsâ. There are paintings and engravings of dinosaurs in many regions of the world from hundreds & sometimes thousands of years ago. How could those people know how âdragonsâ looked like other than simply seeing those creatures?
I am reading currently Contested Bones by John C Sanford & Chris Rupert. They are showing from the actual peer reviewed literature in paleontology, paleoanthropology, genetics etc. that the âape paradeâ is false, and âape to manâ evolution isnât clear at all, but very much contested by the leading paleo experts. The fossil bones found are either clearly ape (australopiths) or hominin (human). Homo erectus, Neanderthal, Hobbit etc are actually Homo Sapiens, not some kind of transitional form. Much of these information is not being widely published in the mainstream media and taught in public schools and colleges. This is dishonest.
Lucy is clearly an ape-like creature like modern chimps. They found human footsteps & tools dated to the same age as Lucy and even older human footsteps in Crete, which debunks the entire ape-to-man paradigm, showing that Homo Sapiens walked alongside the supposed ape-like ancestors.
Homo Sapiens have always been human. Apes have always been apes.
Darwinian evolution seems to me to be very very far from being true, based on the above finding, Cambrian explosion, abiogenesis, mutations not being favorable but rather most of them deleterious. Origin of information in DNA. Theistic evolution appears to stretch credulity. The world is too complex and beautiful just as God made it.
I love the idea of interactomes in the cell. James Tour loves to bring this up in his Origin of Life lectures. 1x10^79, 000, 000 protein-to-protein interactions is beyond astronomically big, yet we are invited to believe that life happened by chance and evolved from JUST one single cell. Cannot go there!!!
The Bible makes predictions: all creatures produce after their kind. This is what we see in nature. The Cambrian has confirmed the Bible, not Darwin.
Gould and Eldridge invented punctuated equilibria for a reason and criticized the gradualism paradigm. This is not emphasized in public education and museums. Why?
God bless you Josh and your desire to stay honest about the Scripture and science.
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Thanks for the kind words @ambassadorINtraining. This forum can be a bit rough and tumble at times, but I am very glad you are here. Thanks for sharing about your story too and current way of seeing things. Peace.
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Welcome, Alex Lasco. Peaceful Science is a good place for discussing the many interesting topics raised in your post. And the name of this forum indicates that we too believe that dialogue can be informative and respectful as we better understand one anotherâs positions. We are a diverse group in terms of careers, backgrounds, worldviews, and just about everything else, so disagreement is common. Yet, I think the vast majority of the time we keep it peaceful and quite fun.
If you would like, we can even launch a newcomerâs thread where participants can start discussing a few of those topics which interest you most. I would say that just about every subject broached in your post has been discussed on this forum sometime in the pastâeven multiple times in most casesâbut topical reprises are common here. And if you want to jump ahead on such subject matter, the magnifying glass icon near the top-right of the webpage will access the forum archive Search feature.
Feel free to message me if you have questions about the forum Discourse software. Iâm not an expert but I think I can find answers to the questions I canât field on my own.
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Itâs difficult to determine what story youâre trying to sell here. I canât assemble a coherent narrative from the disjointed bits you provide.
Well, not trying to sell anything, but I wonder if this location where God charged Prophet Noah PBUH with the duty of preaching to his people to worship The Only One God and to abandon practical idolatryâŚ
human-history.pdf (2.1 MB)
Youâre going to have to work a lot harder at making sense. Itâs impossible to know what youâre trying to say.
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Not what I was trying to convey. What I meant was that his YEC colleagues did not trust God enough to show kindness and love to him through doubt - or at least he didnât recognize it and focused on those who failed in this regard, based on what he wrote. If others around us are afraid of doubt, then when we have it, it only leaves us worse off. Perhaps if his colleagues had encouraged him to be patient with his doubts he may have just left things as a question mark. YEC scientists are only modeling. Their models are just as fallible as the mainstream science, and theyâre almost always one step behind by definition because theyâre not a large enough group to make testable theories and often are working with old data.
He may have found new evidence either scientists presented later in life that may have made him go a different way.
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The YEC models are much more fallible than those of mainstream science, because they are built to guarantee just one outcome: that The Flood did it. Such models simply canât cope with any other possible explanations, even if these are correct.
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Yep, by design. Otherwise thereâs really no point to believing YEC is true. 
May as well chuck it all then.
Thank you for the kind words!
That said, I believe that everything you said in your initial post is untrue. If scripture is true and it seems to contradict what we see in the world (which it does), then you are either misunderstanding scripture or misunderstanding the world. I would suggest the former.
Sanford and Rupert are not reliable guides to the scientific literature, and what they tell you is not true. We could discuss this, preferably in a separate thread. This one is for Glenn Morton. But you should read him on geology.
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John, I donât how to start a different thread to reply to your message.
I used to know how. There was a button around here somewhere.
There are several approaches.
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When you reply, in the uppermost leftmost corner you will see an arrow. Click it to choose reply as a linked topic.
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Start a new thread from the front page (+ New Topic button), and then navitgate back to the thread you are forking to quote relevant points as you edit the draft of the new topic.
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Ask the @moderators to move off topic posts into a new thread.
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Ask about how to start a new thread in the topic, polluting it with off topic posts.
#1 and #2 are preferred. #3 is tolerated but adds burden to the @moderators. #4 is just bad form.
On this point, it seems we agree.
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