So they’re just as scientifically illiterate as you are. That is news because…?
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Im going to have to think and pray on what you say here. My initial reaction is to disagree but i promise you i will pray thru Scripture. I can tell you that you are forgetting a very important point about Job: you forget that Job exists after the fall of man where death was introduced. The paradigm before the fall where Adam and Eve would see no death is a completely unrelateable experience for us and for Job. They probably had little concept of time because they were living forever and not aging. There would be no disease or trouble unless they disobeyed. According to Scripture, after the fall everything changes. God is sovereignly in control even after the fall. But I cannot pin death, disease and suffering on God either. The thing i was hoping that you would bring to our attention is that satan did exist before the fall… Scripture still pins trouble on earth to the fall of man…i dont know all of the answers to these things, but so far in navigating thru Scripture, Im going to take the safest route and stick to the most logical rendering of early Genesis which agrees with the new testament in Ro 8: 20 “For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. 23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.” I will get back to ya if anything else comes to mind as i pray on this. Thanks
Hi Mr. Coe. Read Jesus sermon on mount about judgementalism. Jesus says the standard that we use for accessing others is the standard from which we will be judged. I penned a verse next to this passage in my Bible that relates to it in Jn 7:24 that says,“Do not judge by appearances but judge with right judgement.” Jesus made this last statement in response to Him healing a man on the sabbath.
So the question becomes, Can we assume that God is the maker of a paradigm that includes vicious death, disease, corruption, suffering? You know- the fear filled “Jurassic Park” movie kind of paradigm? In scripture I see a God who is wrathful against sin that creates strife. I dont see a God who creates it. He shows Himself as a Creator, not a destoyer. He is a life giver, not a life taker as a means other than wrath aganst sin and evil. He cares for the weak and should never be considered a creator on the back of weeding them out for only the strong to survive. After the fall, we then see a God who gives grace for survival in humans and animals in a fallen world. And God is sovereign even in a fallen world where He can even use evil kings for His purposes. But He cant be responsible for that evil either.
So full circle, i just cannot accept for my family and i to make judgement on appearances and associate the character of God w suffering and survival of the fitest. When i get to the judgement seat of Christ, i would not want that measure be used against me, my family and all people whom i care for by His grace!
Listen- im not trying to save my yec creationist organization. I have nothing to gain monetarily. And i know that there will be loads of folks in earshot of what i say ridiiculing me for my lack of scientific knowledge etc. But thats ok. A big God who transcends nature and our comprehension will always trump these voices and opinions. He is a good God and I love Him and am thankful for Him! Thanks.
Are you forgetting that little bit about drowning almost everybody with a global flood?
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There are flags on this topic (somewhere) that I haven’t had time to deal with. I still don’t have time, but when I get back I’m hoping to see some honest effort to resolve things peacefully among yourselves.
Hey, I can dream, can’t I?? 
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@Greg The “Jurassic Park” spin on reality is a bit overblown, don’t you think? I mean, watch some “Wild Kingdom” videos; the animals involved will experience pain and suffering, like Job did, but hardly the same kind of existential angst at their impending death that you and I do, and that removes a lot of the element of “terror.,” in my view. Here’s an interesting quote from a guy who’s writing for an organization which holds a perspective that I’m quite wary of, but can agree with the following on virtually every point: “An objection to an Evolutionary
Creation view holds that… Creation bears the marks of Intelligent Design, not blind, purposeless evolution.” Many of the people who raised this sort of objection were quick to point that they weren’t dogmatic on the age of the Earth or other issues of biblical interpretation, but they still felt that evolution puts God out of a job… I think many people were confused by how much I agreed with them. I think God is intelligent, and he’s the designer of the universe. And I think creation—particularly complex life forms—does indeed show the marks of his design. And I don’t think evolution is a blind, random, purposeless process. But for many people, the only way to conceive of this design is by positing certain acts of “intervention” by God that override natural processes. I tried to show them that this is a false choice.
The example I often used was of human fetal development. In several places, the Bible insists strongly that God is actively involved in creating all humans (Psalm 139:13). But yet nobody feels the need to hypothesize about when and how God “intervenes” to accomplish this, on a biological level. We accept by faith that God’s creative activity works alongside what we think of as “natural” processes without demanding scientific evidence that it happens. I simply asked people to consider whether that metaphor could be applied more broadly to the development of all life.
Here’s another way to look at it: there’s a big difference between a “natural” process and “naturalistic” process. If God is really the sovereign creator and sustainer of all things in his world, then there is no such thing as “naturalistic” process which doesn’t involve him. This doesn’t mean that God and nature are the same thing, and I do think the creature/Creator distinction is vital. But we also shouldn’t make the opposite mistake of putting “natural” in opposition to “designed”, as if God’s hand is only present when he’s tinkering with his own creation. This is not the biblical witness, and we would do well to re-examine the categories we’ve set up for God’s action in the world."
While I might nuance some things differently than this, I have to nod in agreement, almost entirely.
What would you say about that? In God’s economy, physical death, pain and suffering are not permanent conditions for any human who chooses Jesus as Lord and Savior; but a world without death of any kind is quickly overrun by life competing for ever-dwindling resources, and suffering and death simply must ensue. It’s rather as myopic as the myth of irreversible progress.
Read what i said in contexr with this: . I say, “In scripture I see a God who is wrathful against sin that creates strife. I dont see a God who creates it.”
So you’re saying all the infants and unborn babies God killed in Noah’s Flood had it coming? 
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Thanks Guy…i have appreciated your inputs here on this site over the months. I find agreement with much of what you say.
On the issue of natural evil before the fall, i wanted to share w you that I was reading some history of Charles Darwins life last night. This by Tim Berra: " 1. Charles and Emma’s first daughter, Anne Elizabeth died of tuberculosis at age 10. Charles never fully recovered from this tragic loss. He was at Annie’s bedside as she suffered terribly for a week before dying on 23 April 1851."
Some have suggested that this event caused Darwin to put an end to any remnant of Christian faith in which he was influenced earlier in life.
If the last statement is true, then Darwin would have incorrectly assumed that the God of Scripture is the maker of what occurred to his daughter. He allowed in to happen, but i dont think we can assume that He created the paradigm of suffering. That was a result of the fall of man.
Anyway, that is some theology stuff to munch on.
As far as creation- yes, God speciated the planet using evolutionary tools we call adaptation. Just as God created the cosmos (big bang if that is what you want to call it) with fully developed mass forms full of energy that is becoming disorganized waste in time,so He created fully developed life forms in our solar system He calls kinds which are running down. Some here have stated that nature is part of how God chooses to reveal His ways and is the pattern of the creation of cosmos and life on earth sure fit together.
So, is it “naturally evil” that the universe itself will die, sometime in the future?
Im saying that in a fallen world, God was even sovereign over the evils of Hitler. Lets face it, God could have taken Hitler out by a snap, but he did not.
The fall of man causes all to be corrupted with sin including children. Scripture however seems to suggest that all children before the age of accountability will find eternal life w God in heaven. (You may not have any interest in this stuff so just ignore if not interested)