There have been some threads recently where @jongarvey has given some input on his argument that the current creation is unfallen and that death and suffering was not introduced into creation by Adam’s fall.
I have discussed with Jon doing a bit of a back and forth on his book and he has graciously agreed.
I include here a couple of excerpts from Jon’s introduction (unfortunately the Logos version doesn’t include page numbers)
BlockquoteMost Christians of course, even Creationists, the majority of the time don’t think about origins and get on with life and faith here and now. If someone gets ill, or there is a destructive hurricane, immediate divine judgement for individual or corporate sin will usually be discounted as the cause nowadays. But the catastrophic effects of sin on the whole natural order in general are often taken for granted by believers. “Natural evil,” including everything from man-eating tigers to tsunamis or asteroid collisions, is seen as the outworking of the cosmic effects of the fall of humanity…
I was rather astonished to realize, as I examined Scripture again, not so much that the effects of the fall on the natural world had been exaggerated, but that the “traditional view” in its entirety lacks any solid biblical support whatsoever
Garvey, J. (2019). God’s good earth: the case for an unfallen creation. Eugene, Oregon: Cascade Books.
The arguments from Jon’s book can be found in the following video which can be rented in Vimeo
Unfallen Creation: The Foundation for a Biblical Theology of Nature They have inaccurately attributed a Phd to Jon - he is MB BChir!
It would be good, before we start, to lay down some rules of engagement for people to agree to and adhere to if they want to participate and I will post at the top of the thread. If people have any others that they think will make this a good conversation then let me know
- This is not an opportunity to discuss science, YEC or the age of the earth in general
- The topic will be kept on track dealing with a chapter at a time, where people are willing to engage
- Preferably people should read the book or watch the video below if they want to engage, but I will try to give a summary of each chapter as we come to it for those who can’t
- Replies should focus on an issue at a time and not do a scatter-gun approach to response/criticism
I will be flagging/hiding comments that go off track or include too many topics in a response. Please don’t feel that this is suppressing comments, more just insuring that the conversation can be as productive as possible
Jon, have you got anything you would like to add before I kick off with Chapter 1?