Ken Ham and the GAE

Wrong. If human beings were popping out of thin air “de novo” every few minutes, science would bloody well know about it.

We could just as easily say that General Relativity was violated just one time, and no one noticed. If we believed that, we would have to also conclude that General Relativity no longer holds.

1 Like

I don’t want to give away too much now publicly. I will hint a little bit.

A literal reading of Genesis requires us to conclude that there were people outside the garden, and that the flood was not global. AIG deviates wildly (and inconsistently) from a literal reading of Genesis when they claim otherwise. If a literal reading of Genesis is important, we should reject AIG. Perhaps there are other versions of YEC consistent with a literal reading of Genesis, but not their version.

How do students respond? When you show them the contradictions, they immediately see it. They often volunteer they have often wondered about people outside the garden too, and they are really interested to explore that mystery.

6 Likes

A curious audience lacking the ingrained biases of adulthood is a glorious thing.

2 Likes

He’s not as bad as Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell Junior?

1 Like

He also has a cool accent.

2 Likes

I wouldn’t put it that way, mostly because I don’t know what “violate Science consensus” means. I’d say the consensus of the scientific community would likely be that de novo creation of organisms does not happen. But in the case of A&E there is no possible data to show that it didn’t.

4 Likes

Or Torquemada or Stalin. Why, I bet there are hundreds of people, living and dead, that he’s not as bad as. Maybe thousands.

1 Like

Ya, that’s what I mean… that’s why I said GAE is a theological hypothesis which does not contradict science.

As to the consensus of the Scientific community regarding De Novo creation, I might call it an opinion… And one that doesn’t matter much (No offence intended).

1 Like

Careful with your language. That is not in fact what you said.

2 Likes

I said this in the end of my reply to Fazal-

Its a theological hypothesis which is not in conflict with Science.

You can check it above… I was referring to this comment. Do you find a problem with it? How would you phrase it?

But that isn’t what I was responding to, was it?

Where are we going with this… You made a point. I acknowledged it and pointed you to the main point I am making.

What is bothering you here exactly?

He is trying to explain how to state the GAE in a way that does not rile scientists. I know it seems picky, but he has a point. Part of the reason I’ve been able to convince secular scientists is that I understand the point he is making, and I have been very careful in following those rules too.

Ya I got it. My problem is with the claim that

Claiming De Novo creation does not happen is not a scientific opinion. It’s a theological one. In this case, I will acknowledge with @John_Harshman that most Scientists don’t hold to worldview where miracles happen (including De Novo creation). But I am not going to call such a world view Scientific Consensus… Maybe it’s a consensus theology for Scientists.

1 Like

I would actually say the consensus is that evolution disproves de novo creation, but the consensus understanding is mistaken.

However, I’ve made a successful argument that this is not the case in a particular scenario, the one-off-creation of a couple within a larger population. In this case, we don’t have evidence one way or another. As this becomes more known, such as through my book, it is likely to change the consensus. That is why it is critical for us to be disciplined in how we explain it.

If any dumb argument latches on to this winning argument, we are going to loose a clear opportunity to change the consensus. That is part of the reason why it is important to distinguish it from ID’s bad arguments.

3 Likes

@Intjer

A fairly reasonable assessment ! …

@Ashwin_s,

I think the Scientists would jeer you off the stage.
Your view reminds me of a text I received just today:

Someone asked me about my denomination… and I explained that I was Unitarian Universalist. And the response was something like this: “ahhh… you are the folks that say you don’t have a credo… which is in fact, your credo!”

My answer was: "Yes, I suppose we could say it the way you are saying it…
but if you are trying to say:

“UU’s are just like all the other denominations… they too have a credo” … that summation is certainly less true than the original stance:

“UUs are not like most of the other denominations… they don’t have a credo”.

@Ashwin_s:
Saying that Scientists have a theology by insisting that the position of rejecting theology is still theology is just a little too disingenuous for my liking - - or for your own good.

How are you going to garner any credibility by playing these word games with definitions?

If someone rejects “all theology”… you are going to have to come to terms with that, honestly and fairly. You can’t shout down:

“Scientists-Without-Theology”
by insisting that such scientists are the same as
“Everybody-Else-Who-Does-Not-Reject-Theology”.

I contrast your statement quoted right here with the more general statement that

“Scientists-without-Theology”

are really just

“Scientists-with-a-Theology”.

In contrast to your incorrect sweeping generality … I agree with you that “Genealogical Adam/Eve” is a theological hypothesis that doesn’t contradict science.

Similarly, believing that Jesus was born God must be a theological position… it’s about God.

A post was split to a new topic: Ken Ham is no Racist

The beauty of it is that even their parents are curious. It is really fun to watch the switch from defensiveness to open curiosity. It really is like a switch. You can see people flipping it, and the demeanor changes in seconds. Beautiful.

4 Likes