Not Peace, But Division? Evangelical Vaccine Refusers Divide Families

[Mercer (John Mercer)]

@Tim

@Chad_the_Layman

… that conservative evangelicals, especially conservative, white evangelicals have been cultivating a mistrust of government and science for a long time.

Which, presuming they don’t mistrust all science equally (which would be somewhat impractical in the modern world), raises the question of which parts of science they choose to trust or mistrust?

That’s easy, Tim! They distrust the parts that liberals trust. It’s all reaction.

[John_Harshman]

Two points:

1. Russian vaccine hesitancy may be largely explained by the widespread recognition that the Russian government lies constantly and the questionable testing of their vaccine.

2. What’s up with Paraguay?

[Tim]

@Mercer

That’s easy, Tim! They distrust the parts that liberals trust. It’s all reaction.

Though I’ve seen enough reports that support this, there’s a part of me that hopes against hope that their entire ideology hasn’t undergone gravitational collapse into the Black Hole that has “owning the Libs” as this hardline minority’s sole aim.

For one thing, I would have thought at least some common ground was needed for every day survival. Not lighting exposed flames at gas stations, for example? Or have we come to ‘if the Libs are too chicken to jump off cliffs, we’ll show them, gravity be damned!’

[Chad_the_Layman (Chad Stewart)]

@Tim

Though I’ve seen enough reports that support this, there’s a part of me that hopes against hope that their entire ideology hasn’t undergone gravitational collapse into the Black Hole that has “owning the Libs” as this hardline minority’s sole aim.

For one thing, I would have thought at least some common ground was needed for every day survival. Not lighting exposed flames at gas stations, for example? Or have we come to ‘if the Libs are too chicken to jump off cliffs, we’ll show them, gravity be damned!’

It does seem like some are intent to go down with the ship. The culture war is their theology, and they bend everything else to fit its tenants. Beliefs are trending towards their sad logical conclusions. Some go down with the ship. Some wake up, get in a lifeboat, or jump ship.

It’s crazy. It really looks like we’re witnessing the demise of a flawed ideology. Not that there won’t be some that carry the ideology forward. But the rule of the white evangelical is coming to an end.

Am I overstating this? I don’t think so.

edit: I can’t remember if I’ve used the phrase “jumped the shark” in these discussions yet, but that’s what events of the last year make me think.

[Mercer (John Mercer)]

@Tim

Though I’ve seen enough reports that support this, there’s a part of me that hopes against hope that their entire ideology hasn’t undergone gravitational collapse into the Black Hole that has “owning the Libs” as this hardline minority’s sole aim.

Sorry, but that’s how it looks on the ground here. How else can one explain the transition from calling the libs commies to embracing fascists and communists while opposing anti-fascism?

@Tim

For one thing, I would have thought at least some common ground was needed for every day survival. Not lighting exposed flames at gas stations, for example? Or have we come to ‘if the Libs are too chicken to jump off cliffs, we’ll show them, gravity be damned!’

That’s pretty much the way it’s going with COVID.

[Roy (34-year veteran)]

@Tim

at least some common ground was needed for every day survival. Not lighting exposed flames at gas stations, for example?

No, they don’t share that.

[cwhenderson (Curtis Henderson)]

@Chad_the_Layman

Those are great questions. I may have been wrong in contibuting it partially to a mistrust of science. Evangelical Christians go to the doctor, for sure. I want to think about this more. Falling for misinformation on the internet seems a bit like an election night redo. They (we ) seem to be ready to believe anything as long as it goes against the mainstream at the moment.

Based on my experience, I think you are correct, Chad. This is going to be an over-generalization, but many American white evangelicals are ok with science as long as it is not inconsistent with the views and values that they already hold. They do not find accumulated scientific evidence convincing. This is why the anti-vaxxers and climate change deniers are so prominent in this group.

[Tim]

[Michelle (Michelle Ols)]

@thoughtful

Unfortunately, I commented on a Facebook post of a friend I haven’t seen in person in over a decade who was sharing/worrying about vaccine shedding making her sick. I nicely explained how that wasn’t likely. She proceeded to shame anyone who would get vaccinated while pregnant even though I just said I had, then we had a back and forth about autism. I let it go there So I learned my lesson to never assume that people who post a little here and there about health aren’t anti-vaxxers and that a little information will persuade them.

It is very sad that some people are so dug into all this mis-information, likely tunneling deeper and deeper into their echo chambers and rabbit holes. I am praying that we can pull some of them back out. Even if we can’t help everyone, at least we can answer questions of people who are just confused by all the different voices and willing to listen to someone they trust. I am glad you attempted to kindly explain how unlikely the vaccine shedding theory is. I am shocked by this new concept, only just heard it first from your post, but have now heard that a friend of mine is responding to someone with that concern. I encouraged my friend to tell the fearful person to look up “vaccine shedding debunked” to read some analysis of the new theory. This video came up when I did that search (he is a doctor who has been posting about covid, vaccines, masks, etc). I’m not sure the tone of the video would help someone who was already bought into the bad idea, but it does give a lot of helpful talking points for us to convey to people who are still willing to listen to counter opinions. He also makes some points about how to spot a conspiracy theory, which are useful.

Is Vaccine "Shedding" A Threat To Unvaccinated Women?

This vaccine shedding concept does seem like a very new low for the anti-vax campaign. Now trying to shame and ostracize people who have been and want to be vaccinated, perhaps in reaction to the fear that people who do not want the vaccine will be sidelined by “vaccine passports,” etc.

[Chad_the_Layman (Chad Stewart)]

Do you guys know of articles that explain why “shedding” is not associated with the Covid vaccines that are from well known sources, and that aren’t snarky or sarcastic? Someone asked me for some articles, and I found one that works, but unfortunately I also found several that are from obscure sources and that kind of make fun of folks that are concerned about the vaccines.

[Michelle (Michelle Ols)]

I haven’t had a chance to dig much up yet. Which article did you find that you thought was good?

You also don’t necessarily need an article, because the counter arguments are rather basic:

mRNA is a rather unstable molecule, which is why the vaccines need to be stored at such low temperatures. The molecules enter some cells in your arm, where the cells that take up the mRNA then make some spike protein to display to the immune system. The spike proteins also do not last long, which is why people need a second shot. Those proteins do not multiply and do not travel to the lungs, nose or mouth, so they cannot be breathed out. Viral shedding happens with an actual virus infection, not with a vaccine that produces only a very small amount of spike protein, not a virus

In terms of the idea that the covid vaccine causes infertility: this is a typical anti-vaccine trope rolled out over the years for many different vaccines. It was also used for the HPV vaccine. And it’s a misogynistic trope: always claiming female but never male infertility. If being vaccinated with the spike protein causes infertility then the infection itself would also cause infertility, which has not been observed. The sequence alignment they pulled out for the theory is super small, aligning any two proteins will show small similarities like that. if you searched for that short sequence you’d find thousands of proteins in the human genome containing that short sequence. So the theory was clearly made up to sound scientific with the goal of scaring people, but is completely baseless

[Michael_Okoko]

@Michelle did a fine job at presenting the science-based rebuttal of the myth of vaccine shedding with regards to Covid-19 vaccines as simply and clearly as possible. Dr Gorski’s article (with some snarkiness) also examines the claim of vaccine shedding with some history on it as well. Enjoy:

Shedding: An antivax trope resurrected for COVID-19 vaccines - RESPECTFUL...

[Skovand (Mi Krumm)]

In my experience it’s all over the place. Same
With masks. I see people of each race and multiple world views all claiming to not be taking the vaccine. I see black, white and Hispanic people all not wanting to get the vaccine just because they are worried about getting sick for a few days and missing work. Obviously all of them lack a good scientific understanding how how the vaccine works and most of them because of that falls into weird conspiracy theories. Ive seen people seriously afraid that the vaccine will contain chips and that if you get the vaccine and chipped, that it will be required to do many things. They see it as the beginning of some “end times” plot.

I see confusion over can it cause mental disorders in unborn kids. Though it’s mostly been democratic women I’m hearing this from.

Within the black community several times Ive seen fear over past medical experiments.

It’s all born out of the typical fight or flight mode of fear. I don’t think there is a whole lot we can do for the older people in this weird fear. I think the best approach is through raising school standards. Start focusing on growing kids emotional intelligence, cognitive processes, and academics in school. That way hopefully as they older they don’t fall into these same silly fears.