Patrick's Objections

Welcome to Peaceful Science @Patrick. We are glad to have you here.

Our goal here is to have meaningful dialogue so that we can understand one another and be understood. Most of us are Christians, but atheists, such as yourself, are welcome here too. What we are doing here serves the common good, especially in a fractured society where common ground is hard to find.

I am a scientist, and I affirm mainstream science including an ancient earth and evolution of all life, including humans. You will find here that I am presenting science that is solid, just as I do in my professional work at WUSTL (http://swami.wustl.edu).

One of my goals here is to find ways to present mainstream science to religious communities in a manner most acceptable to their deeply held beliefs. This serves the common good because science is too important to withhold from religious communities, and we should only scientifically dispute religious beliefs when they are truly in conflict with the evidence. This keeps with the great ecumenical traditions of science, where people of all beliefs (including atheists) can work alongside one another with the same set of rules.

If you care about promoting science this way, as more than a weapon, but a place of common ground, you will find allies here.

I’ve noticed you have put several objections across the site. Most of them are missing the mark badly because we agree with you. There is nothing to dispute. I’m collecting them all here, because there are common themes, and this is best explained in a single place.

Dr. Swamidass,
If you are describing a model where Adam and Eve were created in a garden about 6000 years ago in the Middle East and then after the Fall mated with the population at that time, you need some scientific evidence for it to be credible. I just finished reading David Reich’s “Who we are and How we got here”. Since Modern humans as a species is about 300,000 years old, and 6000 years ago there were about 50 million humans lving across the planet. How could an Adam and Eve be the ancestor or in the genealogy of anyone, let alone everyone. It is impossible. There has been about 4000 ancient genomes sequenced.
All of us are an admixture of ancient populations who are an admixture of even more ancient populations . Doesn’t matter where you come from or what your genealogy was, everyone is a mixture of migrating population of migrating populations.

Careful reading of David Reich’s book should be convincing that your model is impossible and that the Genesis story is just a story. If you can get theology from that story -great. But you certainly can’t get anything factual from it. Human history is pretty much figured out for the past few million years. Who we are and how we got here has been answered and the Adam character from the Genesis story is not part of the answer.

1 Like

You seem to be confused about the difference between genetic and genealogical ancestry. Have you read this article yet? And the references within?

And also:

https://www.nature.com/articles/nature02842

If you mean Homo sapiens, of course I agree with that. However, what if “human” does not equal “Homo sapiens”? Then all bets are off.

Exactly, which is why if Adam existed any time before 6 kya, he would be ancestor of us all. This is a well known finding of genealogical sciences.

Not really. Try again. You actually are making my case for me.

You probably did not catch this, but I affirm an old earth, evolutionary science, and an ancient origin of Homo sapiens (200 to 300 kya) and of Homo genus (about 2 mya). Everything I’m claiming here is 100% consistent with these findings of mainstream science.

@Patrick,

Your objection was the very same as mine when I first read this scenario.

But it’s a two-part scenario for people to engage with the two positions in their life:

The evidence for the pre-Adam population is ample, as you indicate: “Modern humans as a species is about 300,000 years old, and 6000 years ago there were about 50 million humans lving across the planet.”

So that’s the easy part for Evolution.

But for the Christians who are also convinced there was a special couple, specially created, 6,000 years ago, the scenario provides for that. There are studies showing that in a founder population, say 10,000 + 2, using very conservative assumptions about migration, is quite able to provide all the people alive in about 2000 years (after the arrival of the Adam/Eve couple) will have multiple universal ancestors - including the Adam/Eve couple.

In other words, as @swamidass describes above, Adam & Eve as well as multiple other mating pairs, will all be universal ancestors. At the same time, there are dead-end branches who will be the ancestors of nobody alive in 2000 years.

We don’t need the scientific proof that there was an Adam & Eve… we only need to show the math that very quickly any mating pair can be a Universal Ancestor.

Some object to the idea that there is more than one universal ancestral pair. But that is the intellectual price to pay for merging the evolutionary and the special creation scenarios together.

1 Like

Yes, I have read the 2004 nature paper and your material on genealogical ancestry. Based on the results of over 4000 ancient genomes sequenced with ages older than 10,000 years and as old as 440,000 years ago, all of the ancient genomes showed each and every gene coming from a different common ancestor. In other words, no one person, or couple, or even population is the common ancestor of everybody. What you define as genealogical ancestry doesn’t match up with the real history of humanity. There are seven billion people alive today. All of them can trace their genealogy to Genghis Khan, the Vikings, the first rice farmer in Asia, the first African to kill a wild boar with a spear.

Not true, I (and everyone else) have no genetic contribution from most (but not all) people who lived before 6000 years ago. I can say that from a genealogical standpoint that I am decedent from everyone 6000 years ago, but my genome only has contribution from a small number of individuals who lived 6000 years ago.

Certainly no evidence of race in any of the genome studies. All people are a mixture of ancient populations who are also a mixture of even more ancient populations. Adam, if he supposedly lived 6000 years ago in Palestine, has contributed infinitesimally close to nothing to the genome of all people alive today.

race adam = human race in our jargon Patrick. The Hebrew word adam means “mankind”, in addition to being a proper name of the member of that race whose line through Eve bore Messiah. It is the more dignified of the two Hebrew words used to describe our species.

Define Human. Were Neanderthals “human”? How about Denosivans? How about Homo Naladi and Homo Florescensis?

Are Eurasians more or less “human” because they have 2% Neanderthal genes? Are Oceanic people more or less “human” because they 5% Denosivan genes? Are Africans more or less “human” because they don’t have either Neanderthal nor Denosivan genes in their genome?

Common decent links all species. If Neanderthals didn’t have souls neither does Sapiens. If Neanderthals aren’t images of God neither are we. If Chimps aren’t images of God neither are we.

Then why is it that only us homo sapiens have religion? Why is it only we wish to connect to God and be re-made in His image?

Because only homo sapiens have developed language, culture, and societies over the past 40,000 years to invent God(s) to keep us cooperating with each other. Homo sapiens are the only creatures on Earth who cooperate in very large groups. Try boarding 200 chimpanzees on an airplane in any orderly process.

A concept of God is not necessary for language, culture, society, and cooperation. We see cooperation without any visible notion of God in animals all the time. You are an atheist, and you can board a plane in an orderly way. I do not think that your atheism prevents you from being cooperative. I know many kind, open minded, and cooperative atheists. I’m thankful a concept of God is not necessary for these admirable qualities.

2 Likes

As you know, this is hotly debated in science. There is no agreed upon answer.

Everyone here would agree that all these groups are equally and fully human. You are locked into a genetic way of viewing things. That is not what we are talking about.

I affirm common descent. I agree it links all species. However your argument is a non sequitor. That is like arguing that all animals fly because all animals are related to birds. Just because we are linked does not mean we share the same qualities.

Also, it is odd for an atheist to be so opinionated about the Image of God. What do you think it is? Just as scientists cannot agree on what “human” is, neither can theologians agree on the Image of God. It would be really interesting to get an atheist’s take.

2 Likes

That is exactly right. Adam, if he existed, would be a genealogical ancestor of all of us, but not a genetic ancestor of all of us.

You are essentially quoting and paraphrasing a point I made in the paper. It really seems you have not even read much about the position you are critiquing.

This is about as convincing as @scd’s arguments against evolution. If you really want to critique something, you have to understand it.

We agree here too. That is, once again, a key point I am making. Genetic science affirms monophylogeny, that we are all of the same biological type. We affirm that too.

See the responses?

Have you really? Most your objections make no sense if you had read that paper. Try again maybe?

I totally agree. But we are not talking about genetic ancestry. We are talking about genealogical ancestry.

By the way, I did not know about that 440,000 year ago sequencing effort. That is a great study. Thanks for referencing it, though next time include the link when you point to things like that. Thanks!

https://www.nature.com/news/oldest-ancient-human-dna-details-dawn-of-neanderthals-1.19557

Do you have a reference for the 4,000 ancient genomes sequenced? That would be really good to have on hand.

That is true if you mean genetic ancestry. However, that is false if you mean genealogical ancestor. Sorry, you are making a scientific error here, because we are only talking about genealogical ancestry.

This seems to be contradicting yourself. One one hand, you say it does not match up with real human history, then you offer several examples of universal ancestors. Which one is it? Are universal genealogical ancestors real or not?

In the same way that everyone might descend from Genghis Khan, I’ve been suggesting that maybe there is a historical man “Adam” sometime in the past, say 10,000 years ago, that we all descend from, genealogically but not genetically. This is certainly consistent with all available scientific evidence.

Now, your understanding of if this really happened or not will depend on how much you trust Scripture and how you read Scripture. You are an atheist, so you do not think its real. Fine. However, there is no evidence against it, so do not pretend that science disproves it.

Another famous atheist dabbled in these areas, and came to the conclusion that, not only was the explosive growth of the human neocortex probably at the center of what makes us “modern” humans, but that the Bible is remarkably congruent with this thesis.
From Carl Sagan, in “The Dragons of Eden: Speculations on the Origins of Human Intelligence.”
“So far as I know, childbirth is generally painful in only one of the millions of species on Earth: human beings. This must be a consequence of the recent and continuing increase in cranial volume. Modem men and women have braincases twice the volume of Homo habilis’. Childbirth is painful because the evolution of the human skull has been spectacularly fast and recent. The American anatomist C. Judson Herrick described the development of the neocortex in the following terms: “Its explosive growth late in phylogeny is one of the most dramatic cases of evolutionary transformation known to comparative anatomy.” The incomplete closure of the skull at birth, the fontanelle, is very likely an imperfect accommodation to this recent brain evolution.
The connection between the evolution of intelligence and the pain of childbirth seems unexpectedly to be made in the Book of Genesis. In punishment for eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, God says to Eve,* “In pain shalt thou bring forth children” (Genesis 3:16). It is interesting that it is not the getting of any sort of knowledge that God has forbidden, but, specifically, the knowledge of the difference between good and evil-that is, abstract and moral judgments, which, if they reside anywhere, reside in the neocortex. Even at the time that the Eden story was written, the development of cognitive skills was seen as endowing man with godlike powers and awesome responsibilities. God says: “Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the Tree of Life, and eat, and live forever” (Genesis 3:22), he must be driven out of the Garden. God places cherubim with a flaming sword east of Eden to guard the Tree of Life from the ambitions of man.
Perhaps the Garden of Eden is not so different from Earth as it appeared to our ancestors of some three or four million years ago, during a legendary golden age when the genus Homo was perfectly interwoven with the other beasts and vegetables. After the exile from Eden we find, in the biblical account, mankind condemned to death; hard work; clothing and modesty as preventatives of sexual stimulation; the dominance of men over women; the domestication of plants (Cain); the domestication of animals (Abel); and murder (Cain plus Abel). These all correspond reasonably well to the historical and archaeological evidence. In the Eden metaphor, there is no evidence of murder before the Fall. But those fractured skulls of bipeds not on the evolutionary line to man may be evidence that our ancestors killed, even in Eden, many manlike animals.
Civilization develops not from Abel, but from Cain the murderer. The very word “civilization” derives from the Latin word for city. It is the leisure time, community organization and specialization of labor in the first cities that permitted the emergence of the arts and technologies we think of as the hallmarks of civilizations. The first city, according to Genesis, was constructed by Cain, the inventor of agriculture-a technology that requires a fixed abode. And it is his descendants, the sons of Lamech, who invent both “artifices in brass and iron” and musical instruments. Metallurgy and music-technology and art-are in the line from Cain. And the passions that lead to murder do not abate: Lamech says, “For I have slain a man for wounding me, and a young man for bruising me; if Cain shall be avenged sevenfold, truly Lamech seventy and sevenfold.” The connection between murder and invention has been with us ever since. Both derive from agriculture and civilization.
One of the earliest consequences of the anticipatory skills that accompanied the evolution of the prefrontal lobes must have been the awareness of death. Man is probably the only organism on Earth with a relatively clear view of the inevitability of his own end. Burial ceremonies that include theinterment of food and artifacts along with the deceased go back at least to the times of our Neanderthal cousins, suggesting not only a widespread awareness of death but also an already developed ritual ceremony to sustain the deceased in the afterlife. It is not that death was absent before the spectacular growth of the neocortex, before the exile from Eden; it is only that, until then, no one had ever noticed that death would be his destiny.
The fall from Eden seems to be an appropriate metaphor for some of the major biological events in recent human evolution. This may account for its popularity.* It is not so remarkable as to require us to believe in a kind of biological memory of ancient historical events, but it does seem to me close enough to risk at least raising the question. The only repository of such a biological memory is, of course, the genetic code.” [op cit., pp.63-65]
Despite various differences of nuance and timing I have with Sagan, I find his openness to Genesis as, at least, “mythically” accurate refreshing, given that he is totally steeped in a materialistic worldview, and has no room for God.
He even cites literature in support of a “triune” brain in human neurological hardwiring.
"ON HUMAN NATURE Despite the intriguing localization of function in the triune brain model, it is, I stress again, an oversimplification to insist upon perfect separation of function. Human ritual and emotional behavior are certainly influenced strongly by neocortical abstract reasoning; analytical demonstrations of the validity of purely religious beliefs have been proffered, and there are philosophical justifications for hierarchical behavior, such as Thomas Hobbes’ “demonstration” of the divine right of kings. Likewise, animals that are not human-and in fact even some animals that are not primates-seem to show glimmerings of analytical abilities. I certainly have such an impression about dolphins, as I described in my book The Cosmic Connection.
Nevertheless, while bearing these caveats in mind, it seems a useful first approximation to consider the ritualistic and hierarchical aspects of our lives to be influenced strongly by the R-complex and shared with our reptilian forebears; the altruistic, emotional and religious aspects of our lives to be localized to a significant extent in the limbic system and shared with our nonprimate mammalian forebears (and perhaps the birds); and reason to be a function of the neo-cortex, shared to some extent with the higher primates and such cetaceans as dolphins and whales. While ritual, emotion and reasoning are all significant aspects of human nature, the most nearly unique human characteristic is the ability to associate abstractly and to reason. Curiosity and the urge to solve problems are the emotional hallmarks of our species; and the most characteristically human activities are mathematics, science, technology, music and the arts-a somewhat broader range of subjects than is usually included under the “humanities.” Indeed, in its common usage this very word seems to reflect a peculiar narrowness of vision about what is human. Mathematics is as much a “humanity” as poetry. Whales and elephants may be as “humane” as humans.
The triune-brain model derives from studies of comparative neuroanatomy and behavior. But honest introspection is not unknown in the human species, and if the triune-brain model is correct, we would expect some hint of it in the history of human self-knowledge. The most widely known hypothesis that is at least reminiscent of the triune brain is Sigmund Freud’s division of the human psyche into id, ego and superego. The aggressive and sexual aspects of the R-complex correspond satisfyingly to the Freudian description of the id (Latin for “it”-i. e., the beast-like aspect of our natures); but, so far as I know, Freud did not in his description of the id lay great stress on the ritual or social-hierarchy aspects of the R-complex. He did describe emotions as an ego function-in particular the “oceanic experience,” which is the Freudian equivalent of the religious epiphany. However, the superego is not depicted primarily as the site of abstract reasoning but rather as the internalizer of societal and parental strictures, which in the triune brain we might suspect to be more a function of the R-complex. Thus I would have to describe the psychoanalytic tripartite mind as only weakly in accord with the triune-brain model.
Perhaps a better metaphor is Freud’s division of the mind into the conscious; the preconscious, which is latent but capable of being tapped; and the unconscious, which is repressed or otherwise unavailable. It was the tension that exists among the components of the psyche that Freud had in mind when he said of man that “his capacity for neurosis would merely be the obverse of his capacity for cultural development.” He called the unconscious functions “primary processes.”
A superior agreement is found in the metaphor for the human psyche in the Platonic dialogue Phaedrus. Socrates likens the human soul to a chariot drawn by two horses-one black, one white-pulling in different directions and weakly controlled by a charioteer. The metaphor of the chariot itself is remarkably similar to MacLean’s neural chassis; the two horses, to the R-complex and the limbic cortex; and the charioteer barely in control of the careening chariot and horses, to the neocortex. In yet another metaphor, Freud described the ego as the rider of an unruly horse. Both the Freudian and the Platonic metaphors emphasize the considerable independence of and tension among the constituent parts of the psyche, a point that characterizes the human condition and to which we will return. Because of the neuroanatomical connections between the three components, the triune brain must itself, like the Phaedrus chariot, be a metaphor; but it may prove to be a metaphor of great utility and depth.
[op. cit.; pp.55-56].
I find in comments like these great hints at something which transcends mere metaphor and speaks of something marvelously real.
"Nuff said, for now. Cheers!

1 Like

Though obviously dated, the central theses and speculations are very much still hot topics.
It’s available by free download here: https://archive.org/details/DragonsOfEden-CarlSagar
(typo in original). Cheers!

1 Like

Thanks for the warm welcome. The science of sequencing the genome of ancient people is making it mark in understanding human history and migration. It is over turning many of the pre-conceived notions of our past.
I too am interested is presenting the science as solid as possible. The forward edge of science is enjoyable to watch and debate. Just when we think we understand something, a new result comes in changing the debate entirely.

1 Like

I’m very interested in this too. Certainly post interesting papers here for us to look at.

Cutting edge science is really enjoyable to watch and debate, and that is what we get to invite people into participating in with us.