Or, to put it another way: No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. If a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friend’s or of thine own were: any man’s death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bells tolls; it tolls for thee.
I love Donne. He and Hopkins were favorites of mine in college, and I need to read more of them. I picked up their little books of poetry around that time and they’ve been so sadly neglected. An injustice.
But I don’t understand you using the quote in the context of this thread. Especially when what comes next applies to what I wrote earlier about suffering having a greater purpose and of us being aware of that in our human experience:
Neither can we call this a begging of misery, or a borrowing of misery, as though we were not miserable enough of ourselves, but must fetch in more from the next house, in taking upon us the misery of our neighbors. Truly it were an excusable covetousness if we did; for affliction is a treasure, and scarce any man hath enough of it. No man hath afflicion enough, that is not matured and ripened by it, and made fit for God by that affliction. If a man carry treasure in bullion or in a wedge of gold, and have none coined into current moneys, his treasure will not defray him as he travels. Tribulation is treasure in the nature of it, but it is not current money in the use of it, except we get nearer and nearer our home, heaven, by it. Another may be sick too, and sick to death, and this affliction may lie in his bowels, as gold in a mine, and be of no use to him; but this bell that tells me of his affliction, digs out, and applies that gold to me: if by this consideration of another’s danger, I take mine own into contemplation, and so secure myself, by making my recourse to my God, who is our only security.
Can you explain how you see this in the context of human ideas that we decide?
And when she buries a man, that action concerns me; all mankind is of one author, and is one volume; when one man dies, one chapter is not torn out of the book, but translated into a better language; and every chapter must be so translated; God employs several translators; some pieces are translated by age, some by sickness, some by war, some by justice; but God’s hand is in every translation, and his hand shall bind up all our scattered leaves again, for that library where every book shall lie open to one another;
I find neither of those quotes relevant to understanding the first one (“no man is an island…”). And in fact the second quote contradicts the first. If death is good, then anyone’s death diminishes nobody.
In the Christian paradigm, death is only good in that it is a translation for those in the church; Because death has been conquered, it is no longer a “danger” as Donne puts it. But one should still contemplate the “danger” in order to remember God is our only security in death; God doesn’t die - but we as one human family each do die; each loss diminishes us.
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Given all that, it isn’t a loss if the dead one is translated into a new and better existence. So your death doesn’t diminish me, but perhaps my death would diminish you. It turns out that you do in fact need to ask for whom the bell tolls.
It seems you are using Donne to argue against Donne?
I’m confused how you’re applying this anyway…if your death diminishes me, then I don’t need to ask for whom the bell tolls, if tolls for me. You would be the one asking…
Self-contradiction is hardly limited to Christians or non-Christians either. Donne, apparently, contained multitudes. So?
You would have to find out it it was tolling for me (and hence you also) or for some Christian, in which case you should celebrate, as you would be enlarged, not diminished.
It’s not a contradiction. From my perspective, you’re just not understanding the paradox - the soul goes to heaven, but all of our bodies remain in the grave until Jesus returns. That is why death is not wholly welcomed for the Christian and it is diminishing; it only can be “welcomed” as an acknowledgement that translation is necessary because of what sin has done to our bodies and to the world.
Discounting the deaths of millions of people is disgusting, Josh. That’s what you have to do to use this theodicy. Ignore every other pandemic in human history. I stand by my use of the word.
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How does celebrating that a recent advancement in science will save lives going forward lead to discounting the lives lost in past pandemics? I’m not following your logic.
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That’s contradictory in itself. What’s the soul doing in heaven? Does the soul have consciousness and free will? And don’t you get a new spiritual body, or do you have to inhabit your mouldering physical zombie body when Jesus returns? What has sin done to your body, incidentally?
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Atheism? Probably none.
Atheists, however, can provide comfort, empathy and support during this time of difficulty we are all sharing, no better or worse than someone who holds a different opinion on the existence of gods.
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That is very true
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I agree with @Michelle. I don’t see any discounting of lives lost. I’m not even sure that Rana is attempting to do a theodicy or making an argument. He’s just being thankful that we know enough science to rapidly advance in vaccine research in this pandemic, and for him as a Christian, one should thank God for all things.
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Probably because that’s not what I said
He’s doing more than being thankful. He’s claiming that God has providentially arranged it so that we have the necessary knowledge to fight this pandemic at the time it occurs, as an example of his benevolence. That’s what we call confirmation bias, because he fails to consider all the other previous pandemics for which we didn’t have that knowledge. Why didn’t God make providential arrangements for those? It’s the same thing as the sole survivor of a big airplane crash thanking God for preserving him while ignoring the hundreds who died. Any attempt to claim divine providence eventually falls back to divine incomprehensibility. Why do some things happen and not others? We can’t say.
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We don’t know all the answers - I would say yes on consciousness and free will. But there are some clues:
Paul speaks of being with the Lord as being away from our bodies
2 Corinthians 5
So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, 7 for we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
Revelation 6 - the souls are recognizable, can speak, and pictured as being clothed.
When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. 10 They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers[c] should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.
People are recognizable in Jesus’ parable:
Luke 16
The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side.[f] The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’
Those who have died before Jesus returns will receive resurrected bodies first.
1 Thessalonians 4
But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord,[d] that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.
Yes, you do get a spiritual body, that is better than a natural body.
1 Corinthians 15
But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?” 36 You foolish person! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain. 38 But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body. …
42 So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. 43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”;[e] the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. 47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall[f] also bear the image of the man of heaven.
50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:
“Death is swallowed up in victory.”
55 “O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?”
56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
So sin makes the body perishable - it is in bondage to corruption. It leads to suffering and groaning:
Romans 8
For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. 23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.
We have other clues from the gospels after Jesus’ resurrection - our bodies will be like his resurrected body - we will be sons, but adopted not begotten.
I’m guessing that a major purpose of that article was to encourage vaccination, having people take note that new technology can be providential rather than something to fear.
Then what’s the problem? The soul is doing fine without a resurrected physical zombie body.
That’s hardly relevant to noting the point of the quote. Your guesses are poor.
That’s just bad theology of the sort I have described. If a good thing happens, that’s divine providence. If a bad thing happens, nobody says anything about God. The fact that we have mRNA vaccines now is entirely through human action, and the timing is just coincidence.
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Yeah the way you think God works is indistinguishable from one that does no work at all.
Just what, specifically, has God done during this pandemic?
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No - there still is a longing for a ressurected body - justice hasn’t been completed yet.
Well, Christians should just talk about it more. Go through any book of the prophets. Job did refer to God’s providence over bad things:
Then Job arose and tore his robe and shaved his head and fell on the ground and worshiped. 21 And he said, “Naked I came from my mother’s womb, and naked shall I return. The Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord.”
Here’s a Facebook post I wrote at the end of May. I acknowledged God’s providence in bad things:
I don’t know about you, but tonight I see God tearing things down.
Is it a coincidence this pandemic is shaking the world’s greatest economy?
Is it a coincidence it strikes at the heart of our food production?
Is it a coincidence that we see our lives are not our own and everything we do affects everything and everyone else?
Is it a coincidence we have a confounding disease that often spreads silently - some carrying an infection without knowing, while others die gasping for air?
Is it a coincidence he said, “I can’t breathe”? Is that his knee or mine?
Is it a coincidence our institutions and law and order can begin to fall in one little push?
Is it a coincidence all this is happening and we’d rather point the finger instead of blaming ourselves?
Is it a coincidence all this is happening while Christians are more concerned about our pocketbook or our right to worship than actually worshipping, right here and now?
Viruses don’t spread by politics. They spread by people.
Perhaps the virus we’ve spread isn’t COVID. Perhaps we needed this day of reckoning. Perhaps if we turn to God and acknowledge He is God, He will heal us.