Stopwatches and Age

Oh, that’s a shame as I just ran it by her and she is happy for me to use her material. And the algorithm issue was addressed head-on. You didn’t pick up on whether allowing for the case of argument, you were to be convinced about tree ring chronology, it would affect the genetic entropy “hypothesis”.

If others are interested, I’ll see if I can put something together.

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Not much point, since @PDPrice seems to be claiming that you can get 7 or 8 rings per year, and that the correlated carbon dates are similarly accelerated, and so are ice layers and lake varves. The common creationist explanation for everything is that it all happened just like we think, but many times faster. Millions of times faster in some cases. So all your correlations are pointless.

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But that’s just silly. We have living tress, we know when they are planted, we can take core samples without damaging the tree. There’s no justification whatsoever for waving away solid evidence with fanciful assertions.

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In light of the massively catastrophic global flood, and all the many ways that event would have severely impacted these kinds of processes, this is not a ‘fanciful assertion’ at all. Did you know the whole world was covered with water only about 4500 years ago? Did you know that the ice age happened shortly afterward, as a result of that flood, and that the planet is even now still in the process of gradually recovering from it? Can you imagine how much these events would throw off all the assumptions you’re making, including your correlated algorithms?

It seems that the eyewitness accounts from the Egyptians is missing. Maybe they were too busy building Egypt to have noticed.

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Egyptian chronology is inflated.

No, I can’t. How would any of that result in 7 or 8 tree rings per year? How would it result in all the different dating methods to be off by just the same amount, consistently?

If the world were covered with water only 4500 years ago, wouldn’t the Egyptians, Sumerians, and Chinese have noticed? Wouldn’t they, in fact, have all died, and all the lands remained vacant until new people arrived from the Middle East, hundreds of years later? Not to mention the complete lack of any other evidence. There doesn’t seem all that much room for adjusting the chronology of all those civilizations either. What dates would you give for the Old, Middle, and New Kingdoms, not to mention the prior dynasties?

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This article addresses your question:

These are all post-Flood civilizations. However, we do find remnants of cultural memory of this event scattered in cultures spanning the entire globe.

They are the new people.

These are difficult and ongoing questions. This article addresses some of it, as does the documentary, Patterns of Evidence: The Exodus.

Not really, though I appreciate the attempt. It doesn’t address the correlation of methods that I can see.

It addresses nothing. It just assumes that your view of Genesis is correct and supposes that anything conflicting with it must be wrong, somehow. It also doesn’t consider the Sumerians, Chinese, and all the other ancient communities throughout the world. Are their dates all completely off, coincidentally in just the same way?

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Really? Where did all the water come from? And where is it now? Where did the dove find the olive branch?

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Not even the outlier David Rohl buys you enough time.

But even though the Bible does not often mention a Pharaoh by name, here is an instance:

2 Chronicles 12:1-16

*And it came to pass, that in the fifth year of king Rehoboam Shishak king of Egypt came up against Jerusalem, because they had transgressed against the LORD, 3With twelve hundred chariots, and threescore thousand horsemen: and the people were without number that came with him out of Egypt; the Lubims, the Sukkiims, and the Ethiopians. 4And he took the fenced cities which pertained to Judah, and came to Jerusalem.

Then came Shemaiah the prophet to Rehoboam, and to the princes of Judah, that were gathered together to Jerusalem because of Shishak, and said unto them, Thus saith the LORD, Ye have forsaken me, and therefore have I also left you in the hand of Shishak.*

The only Egyptian pharaoh which sounds anything like Shishak is Shoshenq. Because that identification is more in line with historical dates, which would put Egypt in the flood, AiG and other YEC propose that Shishak is Thutmose III. Shishak - Thutmose, Sheshak - Shoshenq; yeah, I’m going with Shoshenq. Vowels are malleable and the original Hebrew did not even record them, and the consonants line up exactly.

Will the Real Shishak Please Stand Up?

So here is what strikes me. So devoted is YEC to its world building exercise, all premised on a six thousand year old earth, that they are willing to indulge in the same strained and fetched re-interpretation of evidence as they take to science, here on the Bible itself. Which is kind of deflating.

Yes it does.

It’s a pretty long article, are you sure you’ve actually read it and found that it addresses “nothing”? Or are you just extremely biased and closed-minded?

This claim doesn’t even make sense. Are you stating that the histories of all these disparate cultures just so happen to disagree with the Bible’s chronology of the Flood by exactly the same margin? That would be evidence that all these cultures started around the same time after a major catastrophic event, and then we could figure out why all of their dates have gotten inflated by a common amount… but I digress, since I don’t think there’s any truth to this claim to begin with.

No Paul, it doesn’t.

C14 dating depends on a constant decay rate, not on a constant C14/C12 ratio in the atmosphere. It is well known the C14/C12 ratio has varied over time which is why C14 dating is calibrate by over a dozen independent yearly dating proxies.

INTCAL13 AND MARINE13 RADIOCARBON AGE CALIBRATION CURVES 0 – 50,000 YEARS CAL BP

C14 dates are not just compared to Lake Suigetsu varves but to multiple lake varve sets, multiple tree ring data sets (dendrochronology), multiple ice core yearly deposits, multiple ocean core yearly sediment deposits, multiple yearly stalactite and stalagmite growth bands (speleothems), multiple yearly coral growth band data sets. All that independent data produces the calibration chart shown above. Creationists will think of a hand wave for each individual data set but can never explain why so many independent data sets show such close consilience.

How many times have you seen and run from this data with no YEC explanation for the consilience?

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Let me repeat:

CONSILIENCE!

The single word which sends YECs scattering like cockroaches when the kitchen light is turned on. :slightly_smiling_face:

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Your statement was a “general rule” that was wrong.

There are clocks that have been operating continually since then.

Your point is obvious. It’s also obviously wrong. We don’t need historians to find out Lincoln’s age, nor eyewitness testimonies. The same evidence that is available to historians could be examined by you.

You’re making similar assumptions, which are also philosophically naturalistic, when you determine Lincoln’s age, or when you promote those ‘evidences’ for a young earth you mentioned elsewhere. Nor are the assumptions used in dating methods “anti-biblical”. That’s your paranoid delusion.

  1. Scientific reports don’t just say what the results of experiments were, they also say how to duplicate those results - so no, they do not rely on eyewitness testimony.
  2. Forensic and documentary evidence is considered more reliable that eye-witness testimony almost everywhere, including in your own judicial jurisdiction, which you apparently know nothing about.
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All questions clearly answered at creation.com. According to scripture, the water burst forth from subterranean reservoirs, and also rained down (but this might have been a result of the volcanic activity that released the subterranean water).

Where is it now? In the oceans. The earth is still mostly covered with water to this day. The Bible says in Psalm 104 that the mountains rose up and the valleys sank down, brining the flood to an end.

The olive leaf came from an olive branch.

But I thought the waters covered all the Earth to a minimum depth of 15 cubits for 40 days and nights. There were huge movements of sediments burying all sorts of drowned creatures. How would the olive branch have survived?

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I feel like I’ve entered the twilight zone! The bumpy Earth flattened then bumped up again. I don’t know what to say. And because a text says something roughly along those lines, no matter how implausible, you claim it happened in the face of all evidence. My mind is blown!

LOL! That ridiculous CMI handwave always makes me laugh! They found a single species of tree that under extremely stressful conditions can produce up to 5 rings a year. Therefore every tree in every species everywhere at all all times produced 5 rings a year, every year. :rofl:

Here is a link to the NOAA database of Paleoclimatology data. You can search tree ring data sets from over 100 different tree species from hundred of locations all over the globe yet not a single one supports YEC loopy claims.

NOAA Paleo Data Search: Tree Rings

Anyone want to bet PDP will ignore this data too? :slightly_smiling_face:

ETA: This database is pretty neat. It lets your search other paleoclimate indicators such as ice core samples and speleothems too. Of course not a single thing supports a 6000 year old Earth.

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