The Anthropic Principle: "If there were nothing you’d still be complaining!"

Anthropic Arrogance
A stroll through the anthropic principle with David Barash, evolutionary biologist and professor of psychology emeritus.

Welcome to the ‘anthropic principle’, a kind of Goldilocks phenomenon or ‘intelligent design’ for the whole Universe. It’s easy to describe, but difficult to categorise: it might be a scientific question, a philosophical concept, a religious argument – or some combination. The anthropic principle holds that if such phenomena as the gravitational constant, the exact electric charge on the proton, the mass of electrons and neutrons, and a number of other deep characteristics of the Universe differed at all, human life would be impossible. According to its proponents, the Universe is [fine-tuned]

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Nice article! Some nitpicks

Second, what’s the basis for presuming that the key physical constants in such a Universe have been fine-tuned for us and not to ultimately give rise to the hairy-nosed wombats of Australia, or maybe the bacteria and viruses that outnumber us by many orders of magnitude?

This kind of misses the point. Life in general is the supposed beneficiary, us being part of it.

[I]magine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, ‘This is an interesting world I find myself in – an interesting hole I find myself in – fits me rather neatly, doesn’t it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!’
It appears that Adams favoured a puddle-thropic principle. Or at least, the puddle did.

This gets a lot of quotes from atheist writers and speakers, but if you look back at Adams’ writing and speeches (I did :slight_smile: but not exhaustively, so maybe I’ll be proven wrong) Adams intended it as an example of how people might have started to develop religious ideas, and not as an analogy for the anthropic principle. It works great for it though :slight_smile:

I’m pretty sure everyone will have some fun nitpicking this one. :wink:
I always considered this a direct satire of AP, but I could be wrong. Adams was a master of putting things in a slightly different perspective, revealing how we might see ourselves if we just applied a little more common sense.

So, I’m going to be the dissenter for this topic. I think that this essay typifies everything that is wrong with the world now. It shows such an extreme bias against a topic (intelligent design) that the author is willing to ridicule and reduce incredible discoveries of mainstream science to the point of worthlessness.

The anthropic principle details a growing list of scientific discoveries about the universe, solar system, sun, moon and the earth, that are so tightly constrained that if they varied only slightly from where they are now, complex life would be impossible. These discoveries were made and highlighted by the likes of Paul Davies, Brandon Carter, John Barrow and Frank Tipler.

One example is that if the value of the space-energy density were to vary by one part in 1120 the kinds of stars and planets necessary for life would not be able to form. (Lawrence M. Krauss, “The End of the Age Problem and the Case for a Cosmological Constant Revisited,” Astrophysical Journal 501 (1998): 461-66.)

To mock the science is folly. It shows an incredible willingness to sacrifice good science in order to humiliate others. The anthropic principle speaks to the number of tightly constrained conditions that are in place in the universe, such that life is possible. The information is factual. What is up for debate is whether or not the numbers have been finely-tuned or not. So, it is not the principle itself, but rather the implications or conclusions that one draws from these facts. Everyone has a right to consider these facts and to determine where they stand on the implications.

Consider the conclusions that are drawn by the author:

But we’re not the outcome of a strictly random process: we find ourselves occupying the third planet from the Sun, which has sufficient oxygen, liquid water, moderate temperatures, and so forth. It isn’t a coincidence that we occupy a planet that is suitable for life, if only because we couldn’t survive where it isn’t. It’s no more amazing that the Earth isn’t a hot gas giant than the fact that no matter how tall or short a person might be, her legs are always precisely long enough to reach the ground.

To marvel at the fact of our existing is like a golf ball being amazed that it ended up wherever it did

Philosophically, there are logical conclusions that one could make regarding the anthropic principle. The fine-tuning aspect could be the only way that the universe could be, or ours could be just the Goldilocks universe among an infinite number of other universes. These are considerations that one can make, personally, as they determine to what the anthropic principle points.

That said, for those of you whose lives are dedicated to the scientific profession, alarms should be going off when one of your peers is willing to flush good science for the opportunity to humiliate their opponents. Whenever one resorts to humiliation, it’s pretty easy to conclude that they don’t have much evidence to present or discuss.

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Oh good! We were getting far too agreeable - Now we can have a big fight. :grin:

Not much time just now tho … but there are many example of things which once seemed to be made “just for us” that we know know were not. People who stake their faith on just how special and lucky we are, are likely to be very disappointed the next time we learn something new.

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Hi Dan! Looking forward to the fight… Seriously, though, I wish that those specific points were the object of the article. Then it would have been interesting and satisfying. Unfortunately, for me at least, it was just sad and pathetic. I love a good joke and appreciate satire, but this article was not my flavor of funny!! :slight_smile:

The truth is the truth. If something once presented as factual is found to not be so, bring it on. It’s best if we’re all using the same set of facts anyhow. I’m guessing that it’s not the nearly 200 items on the list that have been overturned, though. If they all have, then let me down gently.

I think we are saying the same thing here, more or less. (GOLDANJIT, STOPA GREEJIN WIT ME!!) There are lots of old beliefs that were all we knew for a long long time. Then science came along and ruined most of it.

I agree the author was a bit harsh, perhaps intentionally? (starting arguments really drive web traffic) We ARE special in a way, but if we want to think scientifically we should also recognise all the ways we ARE NOT special too.

Multiverse theory got a mention in there too, which is simultaneously a valid point and total cop-out, depending on just which sort of multiverse is meant (there are 4-5). I prefer the mathematical version that considers all the might-have-been realities in addition to the one we have.

Oh … AND YER MOMMA TOO! … since we are arguing. :wink:

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My point is that, if something isn’t true, that should be the point of the story. But it is not. The story really tap dances around the evidence, implying, without stating anything substantial, and concludes that the fine tuning observations are wrong. From this point (having “established” that it’s really all false) they move on to attack the motivation of the principle, which I suggest is incorrect as well. So it’s no evidence, leading to a distasteful motive, all being uncovered by the brilliant detective. It’s the formula used in political ads all of the time to remove focus from one and cast doubt on the other.

I agree on both counts. I’m sensitive to this issue because, as an outsider, I can see how incredibly close people are in their opinions as to what the truth is. But, because everyone wants not only to be right, but also for the other guy to be humiliatingly incorrect, there’s no dialog taking place. This kind of crap fosters more distrust and hatred, the result is that people don’t discuss the issues, and then never get to realize upon how much they agree. Clearly this is what many want. For division to continue, dialog to be stifled, and for intellectual segregation to continue. Did I mention that I’m sensitive about this?? (I am, you know.)

Wouldn’t you like to be a Pepper too??

That you have a favorite multiverse theory only means that you don’t know how to fish, or you aren’t very good at fishing. I’m saddened by both. You, sir, are NOT a Pepper.

I know you are, but what am I?

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I know, however, that @Patrick is a Pepper.

@Djordje is too young to be a Pepper, but we’ll let him slide.

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Wait! Dr. Pepper actually exists? I thought it was just one of those soda brands used in shows as a (poor) replacement for pepsi or coke.

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Blasphemy!!! Dr. Pepper not only exists… it is the most original soft drink, ever, in the whole, wide world. Presumably that’s just the planet, not the universe or and one of @Dan_Eastwood 's multiverse options.

That’s funny though that you thought it was just a movie prop! Truth be told, companies pay big money for that. Those product appearances are called “placements” I believe. If you see brands nowadays, you should know that they are real and they paid big bucks to be there.

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Ouch! You really know how to hurt a guy. I’ll get you for that! :slight_smile:

BUT THIS, there can only be one answer!

[quote=“Michael_Callen, post:8, topic:1707”]
Presumably that’s just the planet, not the universe or and one of Dan_Eastwood’

[quote=“Michael_Callen, post:9, topic:1707”]

Dan_Eastwood’s multiverse options./quote]

Multiverse can be a useful mathematical concept, but it’s not so helpful when planning your next vacation.

Are you sure? I thought I saw @Patrick with a {shudder} Pepsi!

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I don’t see how this is happening. The science is described straightforwardly. The author doesn’t agree with the conclusions drawn by ID people from the data, and he makes his case as to why he doesn’t.

Where is the science being mocked? If anything, it’s certain conclusions drawn from the science that are.

And that’s exactly what the author is doing. Where’s the problem?

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Cretans… apparently, not one of you knows that Dr. Brown’s Black Cherry soda is the only one even worth arguing over. Says so right in the text of 1st Hesitations 9:11. What is the Anthropic Universe coming to, with such unprincipled opinions!!! : )

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No, I am not a Pepper, I drank Tab.

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Dr. Brown’s Cream soda was best.

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Hey! Nothing wrong with Pepsi!

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Hi John: You are right that I did not make the point of my criticism clear enough. Apologies in advance for the long post, but it is necessary to make the point. In my opinion, the issue begins in the first paragraph of the article.

The anthropic principle holds that if such phenomena as the gravitational constant, the exact electric charge on the proton, the mass of electrons and neutrons, and a number of other deep characteristics of the Universe differed at all, human life would be impossible. According to its proponents, the Universe is fine-tuned for human life.

The issue is that there is a false dichotomy established at the very beginning which conflates the two issues (1. the details of the anthropic principle, and, 2. the implications of the anthropic principle.) The anthropic principle is a set of conditions that have been identified over time by a variety of scientists. They have been aggregated into a list of details that appear to have been finely tuned. As I’m sure you know, for each one these details, if they were to be slightly adjusted one way or another, it potentially would not allow for complex life to form.

By presenting the principle and associating its proponents with the ID movement, they are presenting an argument that calls into question the principle itself. What I’m contending is that the principle, and the implications that some draw from the principle, should be evaluated on their own. If the author has a problem with the ratio of the gravitational force constant to the electromagnetic force constant not being able to vary by one part in 1040, then he should state why he believes this is the case. And on and on for any other data point on the list. If he has no issue with these details, then the problem is not with the anthropic principle itself. But this is not at all made clear. Instead, he associates the entire list with the ID movement and presents what seems to be his problem with the theory:

This raises more than a few questions. For one, who was the presumed cosmic dial-twiddler? (Obvious answer, for those so inclined: God.) Second, what’s the basis for presuming that the key physical constants in such a Universe have been fine-tuned for us and not to ultimately give rise to the hairy-nosed wombats of Australia, or maybe the bacteria and viruses that outnumber us by many orders of magnitude?

So now he gets to what he considers the big problem - some people conclude that these conditions were set forth by God, and that they were ultimately for the benefit of humans.

These conclusions are certainly some that could be drawn by people who peruse the list, but they are not implicit in the anthropic principle itself. So, what we end up is the baby being thrown out with the bathwater. The author does not point out any real, significant problems with the data, rather he conflates the topic with a group of people who draw a certain conclusion and rejects it all because of that.

If I were a scientist, I would be disappointed by this, because in reading the article, it is impossible to walk away not believing that the anthropic principle is just some silly idea dreamed up by the Discovery Institute, for instance… We know that isn’t the truth, but the reader does not.

Given the abundance of other possible locations, if humans existed simply as a result of chance alone, we’d find ourselves (very briefly) somewhere in the very cold empty void of outer space, and would be dead almost instantly. Might this, in turn, contribute to the conclusion that our very existence is evidence of a beneficent designer? But we’re not the outcome of a strictly random process: we find ourselves occupying the third planet from the Sun, which has sufficient oxygen, liquid water, moderate temperatures, and so forth. It isn’t a coincidence that we occupy a planet that is suitable for life, if only because we couldn’t survive where it isn’t. It’s no more amazing that the Earth isn’t a hot gas giant than the fact that no matter how tall or short a person might be, her legs are always precisely long enough to reach the ground.

To marvel at the fact of our existing is like a golf ball being amazed that it ended up wherever it did

Now this is truly amazing, because if we lived in outer space we would be dead. If we humans existed by chance alone, we may die in the vacuum of space. But we live on earth, so it is not a coincidence that we occupy a planet that is suitable for life? Why, because we cannot survive where we cannot exist!! Now the picture is becoming much more clear!! This is the entire point of the anthropic principle. Because of the microscopic adjustments that are in place, we have at least one good location where life can exist. You can ascribe that to randomness or God or anything else. If you think someone or no one is responsible for the fine-tuning, it doesn’t affect the viability of the fine tuning at all.

Consider the probabilities before versus after a simple event, such as the position of a golf ball before compared to after a golfer hits it. It would take a near-miracle to identify precisely where that ball will eventually come to rest. But the outcome – wherever the golf ball ends up – isn’t a miracle at all.

The point of the anthropic principle is that there are dozens of conditions wherein a very slight adjustment one way or another would utterly preclude life. This analogy has nothing to do with the topic. It is an utter straw man. An analogy that would be similar would be to suggest that one hits a golf ball, blindfolded, out into space and it ends up on the tip of a pin a million miles away, instead of ending up in any other location in the universe. I’m sure that the author understands this, but he makes the topic sound more humiliating by describing it this way.

That anyone wins a lottery is not amazing. That I win a lottery is amazing. Yes, someone had to win, but it was so unlikely that it would be me, that I would never even conceive of winning. No one would minimize the inconceivable odds by saying, “It’s nothing. Someone had to win anyhow.”

According to the perspective and logic of the anthropic principle, every member of the human population of roughly 7.5 billion can therefore insist that his or her existence was foreordained, evidence of a me-thropic principle.

I think that they author’s disdain for conclusions that some draw from the AP is clearly seen here. There is some incredible science behind the anthropic principle, despite how any individual interprets the implications. The conclusion that these conditions were “god-caused” or “random” should not conflated with the principle itself, as is done here. As I said before, this article seems to have intentionally sacrificed the science itself so as to attack the reputation of ID. The term anthropic principle predated the “intelligent design” movement by eleven years, and physicist Robert Dicke presented his “coincidences” twelve years prior to the AP being named. There is no justification for attacking the principle as though it were the embodiment of ID. As such, I stand by my opinion that this author is willing to dispense of good science if it can damage the reputation of intelligent design.

Again, I’m sorry that this is so long!

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But why single out complex life? That has always been the question that comes to my mind. We can find a whole host of other features in the universe that are just as dependent on those values. For example, we could list all of the features of Saturn and those specific features are just as sensitive to the fine tuning of the universe that complex life is.

Perhaps my skeptic reflexes are overly sensitive, but it seems like we are a bit biased towards viewing ourselves as the most important thing in the universe Therefore, we think the purpose of the universe is to produce us even though there are billions and trillions of other things in the universe that are just as dependent on fine tuning.

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This is fair. My understanding is that there are some aspects on the list that preclude life at all, and some that preclude “complex life”. So I probably could have left that out completely.

I completely respect your sensitivity to this issue and this is the point that I intended to make. There is nothing wrong with either embracing or being skeptical of the implications of the AP. It’s really a matter of opinion as to where one lands, personally. We do this with all topics. We take in the data, filter it, and apply our own philosophies, and draw conclusions. This really has to do with the issue I have with the article. Let the science be the science, but don’t conflate the science and the opinions that people can draw. Especially one, specific group’s opinions.

When I, personally, contemplate the AP, I don’t think of it as “me-thropic” as the author presented. I think that it is an assembly of very interesting points that leave open the possibility that something or someone purposefully fine-tuned conditions for life in general. So maybe I’m really beginning to appreciate why you brought up my mention of “complex life”. In terms of the science, I think that there are more items on the list that allow for “life in general” and fewer that allow for “complex life.” As you point out, it makes a difference as to the conclusions that one might draw, too, regarding the implications. Whether the evidence supports a “me-thropic” scenario, or a “life-centric purpose” or no purpose at all is for the individual to conclude.

What gets my hackles up is when the science is dismissed for emotional reasons (because one does not like the potential conclusions.) Many do this quite often when it comes to evolution. I don’t like the implications, so I reject the science. I know that most readers here strongly object to that attitude. If the science is wrong, disprove the science. If the science is right, then make it clear that you are arguing against the implications that some draw from the science. This article does not handle this fairly, in my opinion. The Golden Rule applies to conversation, too.