The Flood "Removed" not "Killed" Everyone?

(Timothy Horton) #241

Dodge , duck, dip, dive, and dodge! :grin:

How did those with no “free will” get “free will” just by being told about it?

(John Harshman) #242

I think Jeremy is very carefully equivocating on many points, including what counts as civilization, a city, social stratification, Sumerian civilization, Chinese civilization, free will, and so on. According to Wikipedia, the first Sumerian city was Eridu, around 4000 BC. But he dates Sumer to earlier communities similar to those which, when he looks at China, he doesn’t consider to be cities. He picks what he wants and ignores everything else because it doesn’t fit his structure.

(Timothy Horton) #243

I know. The sport is in catching him in the direct contradictions and watching him splutter and fumble for an answer. :slightly_smiling_face:

(Jeremy Christian) #244

Scroll up. I answered that.

(Timothy Horton) #245


Massacres, torture and mutilation: Extreme violence in neolithic conflicts

Violent conflicts in Neolithic Europe were held more brutally than has been known so far. This emerges from a recent anthropological analysis of the roughly 7000-year-old mass grave of Schöneck-Kilianstädten by researcher of the Universities of Basel and Mainz. The findings, published in the journal PNAS, show that victims were murdered and deliberately mutilated.

It was during the time when Europeans first began to farm. To what degree conflicts and wars featured in the early Neolithic (5600 to 4900 B.C.), and especially in the so-called Linear Pottery culture (in German, Linearbandkeramik, LBK), is a disputed theme in research. It is particularly unclear whether social tensions were responsible for the termination of this era. So far two mass graves from this period were known to stem from armed conflicts (Talheim, Germany, and Asparn/Schletz, Austria).

Researcher from the Universities of Basel and Mainz now report new findings after analyzing the human remains of the mass grave of Schöneck-Kilianstädten (Germany), a massacre site discovered in 2006. Their results show that the prehistoric attackers used unprecedented violence against their victims. The researchers examined and analyzed the bones and skeletons of at least 26, mainly male, adults and children – most of them exhibiting severe injuries.

Torture and mutilation

Besides various types of (bone) injuries caused by arrows, they also found many cases of massive damage to the head, face and teeth, some inflicted on the victims shorty before or after their death. In addition, the attackers systematically broke their victims’ legs, pointing to torture and deliberate mutilation. Only few female remains were found, which further indicates that women were not actively involved in the fighting and that they were possibly abducted by the attackers.

The authors of the study thus presume that such massacres were not isolated occurrences but represented frequent features of the early Central European Neolithic period. The fact that the Neolithic massacre sites examined so far are all located in some distance to each other further underlines this conclusion. The researchers thus suggest that the goal of this massive and systematic violence may have been the annihilation of entire communities. The research team was led by Prof. Kurt W. Alt, former Head of the Institute of Anthropology at the University of Mainz and guest lecturer at the University of Basel since 2014

All done before “free will”. Golly.

(Timothy Horton) #246

No you didn’t. Here is what you said

The serpent influenced Eve by speaking to her. How did those with no “free will” get “free will” just by being spoken to?

Please quit dodging the question.

(Jeremy Christian) #247

"It is an error, as profound as it is universal, to think that men in the food-gathering stage were given to fighting… All available facts go to show that the food-gathering stage of history must have been one of perfect peace. - Archaeologist WJ Perry

“For the first ninety-five thousand years after the Homo sapiens Stone Age began (until 4000 BCE), there is no evidence that man engaged in war on any level, let alone on a level requiring organized group violence. There is little evidence of any killing at all.” - Anthropologist Richard Gabriel

“The prevailing view is still that male dominance, along with private property and slavery, were all by-products of the agrarian revolution…despite the evidence that, on the contrary, equality between the sexes - and among all people - was the general norm in the Neolithic” -Riane Eisler, American Scholar, Cultural Historian

“There is the same lack of evidence for violent conflict throughout the simple horticultural period of history as in the hunter-gather era. Graves don’t contain weapons; images of warfare or weapons are still absent from artwork; and villages and towns aren’t situated in inaccessible places or surrounded by defensive walls.” - Steve Taylor, The Fall

"In any case, anthropological studies have shown that scarcity of resources does not necessarily lead to conflict between groups. Data collected by the anthropologists Carol and melvin Ember establishes that “chronic, ordinary resource shortage is not a significant predicator of war.” Or, in the words of R. Brian Ferguson, “the data just does not support a direct association of increasing [population] density and increasing war.” - Steve Taylor, The Fall

(Jeremy Christian) #248

" Eridu appears to be the earliest settlement in the region, founded ca. 5400 BC" - Eridu, Sumeria.

4000BC was around the time the Ubaid period of Sumer ended and Uruk began. Ubaid period existed 1500 years prior to that and the founding of Eridu was the beginning of it.

It’s not me that doesn’t consider them cities. They’re not. Not for a very long time did anything exist that resembled a city.

(Jeremy Christian) #249

Your inability to comprehend my response isn’t my fault. Free will isn’t magic. It’s reflected in behavior. Behavior can be influenced.

(George) #250


It just so happens that Sumer, in its earliest dynasties was unusually empowering to women. Over time, exposure to Indo-European culture from the east seems to have nudged them progressively towards the typical Eastern view of subjugated/protected females. While Elam (and Elam speakers) appear to be non-Indo-European (like Sumerians), and similarly the Kassites, the Elamites and Kassites are presumed to have been progressively influenced by the Indo-European culture to their East, which eventually influenced Sumer itself.

(Jeremy Christian) #251

What do you mean by “unusually empowering”? Because the change over to male-dominance is what was most unusual at that time. Egalitarian cultures that treated men and women equally was the norm for a very long time.

Where are you getting this? Because the timing really doesn’t line up …

" Indo-Europeans: general name for the people speaking an Indo-European language. They are (linguistic) descendants of the people of the Yamnaya culture (c.3600-2300 BCE) in Ukraine and southern Russia, and settled in the area from Western Europe to India in various migrations in the third, second, and early first millenniums BCE." - Indo-Europeans - Livius

(Jeremy Christian) #252

Something that should be noted in the midst of all this talk of spans of time a culture existed and just how quickly they went from a settled community to a full blown civilization, in Sumer there’s not a progression that works up to these things like in other cases. Eridu was established right from the start. And Eridu, as well as all other city-states established afterward, was built around a temple at the center.

Nowhere else is there much of any spiritual practices beyond animism, yet Sumer, according to their writings, built city-states around a temple. Each city-state had a god who lived in that temple. And the people basically existed to serve this god.

Such a pronounced spiritual/religious concept so early on. Something else unique to them.

(SpareHeadOne) #253

You’re too good to answer basic science questions but you’re willing to talk about a stupid book written by stupid people. You’re willing to waste your time talking about a flood that didn’t happen with a guy that is defending a book that he doesn’t really believe is exacty true. You’re willing to waste your time trying to show a guy that the God he believes in isn’t perfectly good. But you couldn’t be bothered to straighten me out and possibly educate some others in the process.
The rich get richer and the poor get poorer

(S. Joshua Swamidass) #254

@SpareHeadOne what is your point exactly?

(Timothy Horton) #255

Continued dodging of the question noted. Looks like your whole idea is pretty worthless since you can’t explain how “free will” got passed from one who had it to one who didn’t have it. The lame excuse “influence!” doesn’t provide any information on the process at all.

Something is sure reflected in your behavior of ignoring evidence and dodging every question but it isn’t very flattering.

(Neil Rickert) #256

Everyone has their own preferences. So @John_Harshman is spending his recreation time on what he wants to do.

(George) #257


There is at least one journal article (I will try to find it) that points out how much more status and rights had in the early Sumerian dynasties… and that they slowly but steadily became more and more “embraced” by what we call patriarchal restrictions.

(George) #258

The timing is that some “source” from Indo-Europeans (rather than from Semite culture) seemed to be influencing Sumerian culture. Elam isn’t Indo-European. And the Kassites weren’t Indo-European. But the the Farsi (future Persians) and the western Scythians were becoming more and more influential. And Indo-Europeans also entered the picture to the West of Sumer - - the Hittites and the Mittani.

Because of the documents left between the Hittites and the Anatolians… we can vividly note the source of the influence and its proximity!:

From the Wiki article on the Mitanni-Aryans:

In a treaty between the Hittites and the Mitanni (between Suppiluliuma and Shattiwaza, c. 1380 BC), the deities Mitra, Varuna, Indra, and Nasatya (Ashvins) are invoked. Kikkuli’s horse training text ( circa 1400 BC) includes technical terms such as aika (Vedic Sanskrit eka , one), tera ( tri , three), panza ( pañca , five), satta ( sapta , seven), na ( nava , nine), vartana ( vartana , round). The numeral aika “one” is of particular importance because it places the superstrate in the vicinity of Indo-Aryan proper (Vedic Sanskrit eka , with regular contraction of /ai/ to [eː]) as opposed to Indo-Iranian or early Iranian (which has *aiva ; compare Vedic eva “only”) in general.[1]

(John Harshman) #259

Probably Dravidian, as I understand it.

(Kenneth Turner) #260

Genesis 1 doesn’t mention Adam and Eve