The Flood "Removed" not "Killed" Everyone?


(Jeremy Christian) #221

They had free will before the fall. They could not have fallen without it.


(Timothy Horton) #222

Not only that but “free will” can be given to someone who lacks it just by having a “free willer” tell them about it.

Don’t try to make any sense of it, just enjoy the ride. :slightly_smiling_face:


(Greg) #223

Just three more questions: Were Adam and Eve in Gods image before the fall? And do Adam and Eve retain “free will” after the fall? What is the difference betw free will before and after the fall? I hope im not imposing…so intrigued by this new thinking


(Jeremy Christian) #224

In this context, free will is the capability to behave free of God’s will. Like when Adam and Eve acted contrary to God’s will. Humans before Adam and Eve, created in Gen1 in “God’s image” did not have a free will, but could only behave as God said. So they were made in God’s image. But Adam and Eve were made capable to behave outside of God’s will and therefore could not be in God’s image. They were their own images.


(John Harshman) #225

You count a grave containing both males and females of high status as indicating an egalitarian society?


(Jeremy Christian) #226

Yes. One consistent characteristic of egalitarian societies is the lack of male dominance. Male dominant society didn’t come about until Sumer.


(Timothy Horton) #227

Don’t you ever get tired of pulling stuff out of your…of making things up as you go? We just had a thread discussing a paper on the Y-chromosome bottleneck in humans. The scenario which best fits the data is human societies underwent lots of male dominated clan warfare between 7,000 and 5000 years ago which led to lots of male deaths and the male (y-chromosome) having greatly decreased diversity in the human population.

Neolithic Y Chromosome Bottleneck

Sorry but the science once again directly refutes your speculation.


(Timothy Horton) #228

Jeremy why don’t you explain once and for all why not having “free will” makes it impossible for a society to be civilized, or invent writing, or firearms, or build cities, or have a stratified society. Your whole claim is based on that one completely unsupported premise.

When you’ve done that then please explain how someone without “free will” can obtain “free will” just by being told about it.


(Greg) #229

Hmm. I guess you are free to believe whatever you want to, but these views are decidedly unbiblical in so many ways. You may believe there were people before adam and eve, but the Bible does not give such permission. And Genesis 1 plainly states that Adam and Eve were created in Gods image. Adam and Eve had free will before the fall. But after the fall, mankind is dead in sin, so freedom has been exchanged for slavery…slavery to selfish, sinful appetites, and slavery to the will of real evil presence in the world. According to Scripture, freedom can be found again in the better Adam when we simply humble ourselves in admittance of our sin before a powerful, loving and just God to find new life in God’s Son through His death on the cross.
Of course these words wont sit well with many who choose not to believe in God. Thats ok. Im just being a conduit of exactly what Scriptures say, which i know with all of my being are true in every last word. I cannot prove this scientifically. But the God i see described in scripture by God Himself transcends the natural so profoundly that i fully expect scripture and science to conflict in certain degrees which i would never claim the authority of knowing.


(Jeremy Christian) #230

“between 7,000 and 5000 years ago” … actually, timeline wise, that’s pretty on point as there was a significant uptick in violence around that time.

The problem you’re going to have with that theory is that by that time the world was fully populated by humans, so that warfare would have to have been incredibly deadly. Globally deadly.


(Jeremy Christian) #231

Because free will brings with it a heightened sense of self-awareness. Like in the way it said about Adam and Eve, “the eyes of both of them were opened.” Then they realized they were naked. They became self aware and aware of their individual selves separate from the natural world around them.

Once you behave in a way that is inconsistent with God’s will you’re disconnected. You “fall”. Now you’re on your own. All it takes is a little nudge. Just like the nudge the serpent gave Eve.

Writing, like in Sumer, was invented because of the need to keep track of what was owed or how much belonged to who. With their advanced farming practices Sumer created an economy and the need arose, because of free will, to track goods. They invented a numbering system for the same reason. They were capable of these things before, but free will made these things necessary.

Stratified society comes when you’ve got some who are considered more important than others. A very uncommon characteristic among humans before free will. Personal possession is another thing it brought about. Then comes conflict. Wars. Guns.

It’s all tied to free will. Before free will humans were very non-violent and non-aggressive. Free will changed everything.


(30-year veteran) #232

You’re claiming that the Central Americans had free will courtesy of Chinese visitors but North Americans did not.

Unfortunately for your thesis, the “Indians of the Pacific north-west” that the Chinese may have visited are North Americans, not Central Americans, so if the Chinese were spreading free will you’ve got the result backwards.

From your own source:
“[James DeMeo] notes that three were three main patrist areas of the Americas: Caribbean Mesoamerica (that is, where the Aztecs and Maya lived), Peru (where the Incas lived) and also the north-west Pacific (or the north-west coast of Canada, including present-day British Columbia). He speculates that Saharasian peoples may have arrived in the north-west Pacific first - possibly from Japan or China - and migrated southwards…”


(Greg) #233

The way i read early Genesis is that adam and eve, the FIRST humans were free in two senses: they were free to make a choice between Gods will or not Gods will. And they were in a sense free of heart to know that choosing wrongly would be bad. They had the ability in and of themselves by God’s design to want what was right and not want not what was wrong. Of course Eve was deceived towards want to disobey, and Adam chose to sit idly by watching his wife err, then it hit the fan. Adam was charged with the sinfulness in mankind.
After the fall, free will still exists, but the desire or want or power to choose that which is most important: reconciliation back to right standing w God is lost, so in this sense, man is not free but enslaved. Simply having faith in admittance and repentance of wronging and faith in Jesus for our forgiveness by the cross gives power back to want what is right and to fight disobedience. As per scripture, this turns hearts of stone back into hearts,of flrsh. And disobedience is wiped away forever not at conversion, but at glory.

Not sure whats going on in this discussion…if there is an attempt to make sense of the existence of man before Adam, then my best to figure a way to incorporate that into a proper Christian worldview! Be prepared for some fun theological gymnastics. I see Scripture that declares Adam and Eve the first humans, and Eve the mother of all future humans, and by faith count on this, ignoring all the other voices…this make all these ideas on freedom, reconcilation easy.


(John Harshman) #234

You have confused “A implies B” with “B implies A”. If what you say is true and egalitarian societies lack male dominance, that doesn’t mean that societies that lack male dominance are egalitarian. Further, you seem capable of ignoring everything that doesn’t fit your notions, such as the words “high status”. Do egalitarian societies build giant pyramids with houses for king and priests on top?


(SpareHeadOne) #235

I don’t understand why you are happy to talk about this hypothetical garbage that you don’t believe in but you won’t teach me about feathers.


(John Harshman) #236

Because you started out by assuming that fish scales and reptile scales are related, which means you are hopeless on the subject. You need remedial education before you are capable of discussing it, and I am not prepared to offer that remediation. It’s possible that a comparative vertebrate anatomy textbook would be of help to you, and perhaps your local library has one or two.

But I think I understand why you have launched into this digression.


(Retired Professor & Minister.) #237

@Jeremy_Christian, have you read Diamond’s Guns, Germs, and Steel?

I’m glad @Timothy_Horton mentioned that very important book. (If I could do so, I would make it required reading in every high school and college history class.)


(Timothy Horton) #238

That’s a religious / philosophical claim, not a scientific one.

Perhaps you misunderstood. I asked you to support your claims, not just repeat them. The Chinese invented a symbolic means of record keeping, and advanced farming practices, an an economy spread over 100 sites, all 1500 years before Sumer existed. They have absolutely nothing to do with “free will”.

(facepalm) So human clans never fought each other before “free will” despite the huge amount of evidence we have for neolithic human violence?? Humans never had personal possessions like the ones found at Jiahu and Catalhoyuk?? Every time I think you’ve hit the bottom of the loopy claims pit you dig a little deeper.

I notice one again you ducked the question of how those with no “free will” can get “free will” just by being told about it. You can’t even think up a plausible sounding hand-wave for that one. :slightly_smiling_face:


(Timothy Horton) #239

Obviously the Chinese tiptoed across the Bering land bridge and through North American all the way to Central America while the NA natives were sleeping. The Chinese didn’t speak with any NA natives otherwise those natives would have caught the highly contagious “free will” disease. :open_mouth:


(Jeremy Christian) #240

All 1500 years before Sumer existed? You sure about that? So by 7000BC they had done all of that? Really? Or is it actually that an early Chinese culture was at first settled there around 7000BC, then many many centuries later did all of that?