The Flood "Removed" not "Killed" Everyone?


(Jeremy Christian) #101

I’m not ignoring anything. I’m just not calling any gathering of humans a “civilization”.


(Timothy Horton) #102

Of course. You’re just cherry-picking a particular definition of “civilization” not universally accepted so you can prop up your nonsense “Sumer” claims.

Jiahu is a rich but little known archeological site located near the village of Jiahu near the Yellow River in Henan Province in central China. About equidistant between Xian and Nanjing, the site was occupied from 9,000 to 7,700 years ago and then from 2,000 year ago to the present. In addition to yielding the world’s oldest wine and some of the oldest rice and earliest playable musical instruments, it may have also yielded the earliest examples of Chinese writing.

Laura Anne Tedesco of the Metropolitan Museum of Art wrote: “The archaeological site of Jiahu in the Yellow River basin of Henan Province, central China, is remarkable for the cultural and artistic remains uncovered there. These remains, such as houses, kilns, pottery, turquoise carvings, tools made from stone and bone—and most remarkably—bone flutes, are evidence of a flourishing and complex society as early as the Neolithic period, when Jiahu was first occupied.

Zhang Juzhong and Cui Qilong wrote in “A Companion to Chinese Archaeology”: “In this section I refer to the three initial phases identified for the site: early (first phase), middle (second phase), and late (third phase). Social-cultural development almost reached its zenith during the second phase, and it rose a little more during the third phase before declining. There is evidence for a social division of labor that becomes clearer over time, especially from the burials.

JIAHU (7000 B.C. to 5700 B.C.): HOME OF THE WORLD’S OLDEST WINE AND SOME OF THE WORLD’S OLDEST FLUTES, WRITING, POTTERY AND ANIMAL SACRIFICES

Sure sounds like an early civilization as most Chinese historians agree.


(Timothy Horton) #103

I’ll note that “civilization” isn’t a binary condition, one day there’s none and the next day POOF! Civilization!. Civilizations began evolving from the time humans first began living in permanent settlements. Where one assigns the tag “civilization” on the continuous process from then until now is quite subjective. It’s like trying to decide where red stops and orange starts on a color spectrum.

Trying to make an argument based on a specific definition of “civilization” is an exceptionally weak tactic.


(Jeremy Christian) #104

Well let’s first clear up one point of confusion. I’m not trying to make an argument based on this definition. This whole debate over what constitutes a “civilization” is irrelevant anyway. What’s relevant is finding the signs of a significant shift in behavior that’s the result of the events being described in Genesis.

What makes Sumer significant is that it’s the first place where the shift away from egalitarian behavior began. And unlike these other cultures you’ve been referring to, what began in Sumer continued on throughout the region and signified a significant shift in how human cultures operated from that point forward. What began there changed everything.


(Timothy Horton) #105

Except it didn’t begin there. It was already happening independently in China as the evidence you keep ignoring shows. Sorry but your “Genesis started it” claim is good and busted.


(Jeremy Christian) #106

Well considering all the inventions credited to the Sumerians, which include but are not limited to copper, the wheel, writing, an economy, urban planning, cartography, astronomy, complex mathematics, chariots, sail boats, plows, time, a monarchy government … It’s apparent there’s quite a lot that did begin there.

Maybe worth some consideration.


(S. Joshua Swamidass) #107

Well, there is the GAE…


(Timothy Horton) #108

So? Many if not most of those things were developed independently in multiple human cultures. They didn’t originate there and then later spread across the globe.

I do find your attempts to drastically rewrite history to fit your Biblical narrative to be rather amusing however.


(John Harshman) #109

And you know this how?

No, as far as Egypt is concerned it includes Africa, period.


(John Harshman) #110

All of them invented independently in various other places at various other times too.


(John Harshman) #111

Are you attaching the GAE to some kind of cultural diffusion claim? Some big divide in human behavior? This is the first I’ve seen of that aspect of your theory.


(Jeremy Christian) #112

Okay, lets think about that. For hundreds of thousands of years humans didn’t do any of this. Same types of conditions, same needs, same struggles, yet for hundreds of generations, nothing.

Then in Sumer these things. Then, like you said, developed independently in multiple human cultures. Something has happened. Something has changed. And it just so happens that it first started to happen right where/when the events of Genesis take place. Then it happens all over the place. As you said.

Is my claim still “good and busted”?


(Timothy Horton) #113

No they didn’t happen in Sumer first. They happened independently and in parallel with other human cultures like the Jiahu which predates Sumer by 1500 years and which produced things like the world’s earliest known proto-writing, wine, musical flutes, and pottery. But you ignore all that because you want to push your Biblical fantasy. Not very intellectually honest of you now is it?

I didn’t say that and I’d appreciate you not putting words in my mouth.

Yes, it’s good and busted.


(Jeremy Christian) #114


(John Harshman) #115

Sorry, but random crap you pull off the web doesn’t count as evidence. And even in your random reference it’s a claim made by the Sumerians, not by any modern authority, and not the presence of all those non-Sumerian cities on that sourceless list of claims.


(Jeremy Christian) #116

This isn’t random crap. This is what comes up when you google “first human city”. What can be taken away from this is that Eridu, the first Sumerian city, is most definitely in the conversation. It is the earliest of any sites listed. It is the earliest to be included in the discussion of what constitutes a “city”.


(Jeremy Christian) #117

" The Ubaid period as a whole, based upon the analysis of grave goods, was one of increasingly polarised social stratification and decreasing egalitarianism. - Ubaid period - Wikipedia

Because egalitarianism is the “default” behavior of ancient human societies and anything other than is worth noting.


(Jeremy Christian) #118

I’m curious what you’re basing this on.


(John Harshman) #119

You are cherrypicking and re-interpreting fragments you pull off the web. This is not scholarship.


(Jeremy Christian) #120

I pull from books too.