The Flood "Removed" not "Killed" Everyone?


(Jeremy Christian) #161

Exceptionally large settlements developed in Catal Huyuk (7,500 to 5,700 BC) in Turkey and the Lepenski Vir settlement (dating back to 7,000 BC) located in the central portion of the Balkan peninsula. The Lepenski Vir culture gave way to the Vinča-Turdaș culture (5,000-4,500 BC), which at one point had populations estimated at 2,500 or more in some of the larger sites.

Yes, it happened in many locations. Highly populated farming cultures. But the thing is, all these sites, as well as others not listed, remained egalitarian. No class stratification. You recall what you sited earlier? … “Scholars have defined civilization using various criteria such as the use of writing, cities, a class-based society,…”

So, when you say “it” happened, your “it” isn’t accurate. Yes, highly populated cultures formed around farming, but not the birth of civilization.

“It happened independently in many locations and did not require your “Genesis free will” fantasy.”

The part that does require my “Genesis free will fantasy” is free will. That’s what changed places like Sumer, Egypt, the Indus Valley, and changed them from egalitarian social dynamics to class stratified. One of the main criteria for determining whether or not a settlement qualifies as a “civilization” requires my “Genesis free will fantasy”.

You sited above what qualifies a settlement as a “civilization”. What about Jiahu qualifies? Just going by what you sited.


(Timothy Horton) #162

Yes that is your loopy fantasy claim completely unsupported by any physical evidence and directly refuted by the fact civilizations arose independently and simultaneously in at least five different areas of the world as you have already been shown.

Generally speaking in science when an author deliberately ignores a huge amount of evidence which disproves his hypothesis he’s considered a crackpot. :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:


(Jeremy Christian) #163

Why are you saying I’m ignoring evidence? Am I not addressing everything you bring up directly?

I’ve backed up just about everything I’ve said in this discussion. Feel free to debunk or disprove anything I’ve sited, but don’t ignore it and say what I’m saying is “unsupported”. Show me it isn’t. You haven’t done that yet. You clearly think you have, but you haven’t.


(Jeremy Christian) #164

I want to make this clear. I am not concerned about being “right”. When during the course of this discussion it was first said that I was wrong about Sumer, I got legitimately excited about it. I like to be shown I’m wrong about something. It means I’ve got a flawed view of something that I can now correct. I don’t want to just continue to be wrong about it.

I’m definitely not ignoring anyone’s statements. I’m addressing them and telling you exactly what I think. If during the course of one of those back and forths it can be shown that I am wrong about something, I’m all ears.


(Timothy Horton) #165

Because you are ignoring all the evidence the Sumerians weren’t the first and only civilization to arise in that time frame.

You are not. Hand waving away the evidence is not addressing the evidence. Or maybe I should say it is not honestly addressing the evidence.


(Jeremy Christian) #166

Okay. Let me lay out more clearly exactly what I’m claiming.

The first three civilizations were Sumer, Egypt, and the Indus Valley (listed as the Indo-Gangetic Plain in the link you sited above). Sumer was first, but both Egypt and the Indus Valley came about pretty quickly afterward.

In the context of what I’m claiming, the descendants of Adam and Eve, the family of the children of Noah, all having free will, were dispersed at Babel. This dispersion was caused by a climate change that transformed the Mesopotamian region into desert. Those families went in all directions. Some to Egypt to the west, some to the Indus Valley to the east, and some stayed in Mesopotamia and rebuilt what was there before.

With the world having already been populated by humans, each place the descendants of Noah went was already populated. With the introduction of free will it transformed every place they went in a rather short amount of time.

So yes, there are many places where civilization sprang up, all across the planet. All in a relatively short amount of time. But it all started at Sumer.


(Timothy Horton) #167

That’s already been demonstrated false since the Peiligang civilization including Jiahu began 1500 years before Sumer. Since your premise is based on a false claim your conclusion is false also.

How did they manage to build a time machine and travel back in time 1500 years and around the other side of the planet to China?


(Jeremy Christian) #168

" Archaeologists believe that the Peiligang culture was egalitarian , with little political organization. The culture practiced agriculture in the form of millet farming and animal husbandry in the form of pig raising. … The site at Jiahu is one of the earliest sites associated with this culture." - Exploring Chinese History :: Culture :: Archaeology :: Neolithic and Bronze Age Cultures

Civilization?


#169

What do you think of this?


(Timothy Horton) #170

When Noah’s offspring traveled in their time machine 1500 years back in time and around the planet to China, how did they learn to speak Chinese?

Dance of the Crackpots


(SpareHeadOne) #171

Looks like some sort of Bird megafauna.


(Jeremy Christian) #172

I find this kind of thing infinitely fascinating.


#173

Our history is much more amazing than anything you read in ancient texts. And more and more is found each day in all areas of science.


(Jeremy Christian) #174

True. And sometimes that history can help flesh out those ancient texts. And sometimes those ancient texts can help explain that history. As in this case.


(John Harshman) #175

As we have seen, nothing you have claimed about this turns out to be true, even when you change your story regularly.


(Jeremy Christian) #176

Again, you insisting an ancient Chinese farming culture beat Sumer to the punch in being the first civilization is just plain wrong. Yes, the first Chinese civilizations eventually came about from this ancient culture, but not before Sumer. The farming culture, if it did come before Sumer, is irrelevant. The emergence of cities and class stratified cultures is what we’re looking for. Not just highly populated farming cultures.

You really seem to be struggling with this. It’s apparent you’re not grasping this, not because you’re not capable, but because you’ve convinced yourself that I’m the one in the wrong. Correct that first.


(Jeremy Christian) #177

Please see here … Jeremy Christian on HubPages

This is a series of articles I wrote on this topic back in 2012. Read these to see I have not changed my story in 7 years, much less during the course of this discussion.


(John Harshman) #178

Those are two different things, you know. Plenty of cultures without cities had class structures.


(Jeremy Christian) #179

Yeah, they are two different things. Two different criteria used by scholars to define whether or not a culture/settlement is a civilization. As stated in the reference you sited above …

“Scholars have defined civilization using various criteria such as the use of writing, cities, a class-based society


(Timothy Horton) #180

And sometimes history can disprove the loopy twisted interpretations some people dream up about ancient texts just to support their preconceived religious beliefs. As in this case.