The Pollen Problem

[Paul_King]

@AnEvolvedPrimate

I’ve seen this claim from creationists a lot, but what I never see is an attempt to put it in practice.

If you were actually try to create a nested hierarchy based on designed objects, do you think it would follow the same pattern of living organisms based on genetic inheritance?

Niles Eldridge looked at the development of the cornet:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/225328836_Paleontology_and_Cornets_Thoughts_on_Material_Cultural_Evolution

[Rumraket (Mikkel R.)]

@UncensoredPilgrims

Nested heirarchies can be created from designed things, not just evolved things. That’s not proof of anything.

You can intentionally created a nested hierarchy. That isn’t in dispute.

What is in dispute is that simply designing things for functional reasons inadvertently results in a nested hierarchy as an expected byproduct of the designing process.

You have no model of design from which it logically follows that significant amounts of nesting hierarchical structure will come to exist in the data between genealogically unrelated things.

That means you have to posit intent behind it’s creation. That the designer put that structure into the data on purpose despite there being no functional reason to do so. But since it is not a priori expected on design and merely accounted for after the fact by positing intent behind it’s creation, while common descent naturally predicts it (that is to say, it is a priori expected on common descent), it is strong evidence favoring common descent over separate creation.

[UncensoredPilgrims (Paul P)]

@Dan_Eastwood

You have ~40 days to get all that water in place, and a massive Heat Problem that comes along with it.

Yes, both creationists and evolutionists have heat problems and light time travel problems. Figuring this stuff out is very hard.

@Dan_Eastwood

Then another 300+ days to make most of that water go away,

You think the water went away?

@Dan_Eastwood

shuffle the continents around (another Heat Problem),

I don’t necessarily subscribe to the theory of catastrophic plate tectonics. I’m agnostic on the question at the moment, as there are major unsolved questions and problems with those theories. One need not be committed to a particular theory of how the continents arose to believe in a global flood.

@Dan_Eastwood

and put most of those carefully ordered geological layers back in order.

It’s not clear what you’re getting at with this. The fact is, we do see geological layers that span worldwide across continents, which is very strong evidence for the flood.

@Dan_Eastwood

What sort of Flood scenario scoops up biomes one by one, keeps them suspended separately while other biomes are being scooped up, then lays them out gently on top of the continents so the fossils display a nested hierarchy that did not exist before?

That’s not what I believe. The flood buried the fossils as it was ascending, in the order in which they were encountered. Then as the waters receeded from the rising continents these layers were rapidly eroded.

@Dan_Eastwood

And then you have the gall to claim everyone else is “conditioned through a lifetime of media exposure”, which is conspiracy theory on a level exceeding the imaginations of Wilson and Shea.

Not a conspiracy theory, just an obvious fact.

@Dan_Eastwood

No. Just no. If you want to be taken seriously then you need to have some constraints that keep you inside the same reality where everyone one else lives.

Whether you take me seriously is between you and God, it makes no difference to me.

@Dan_Eastwood

If you want people to respect your religious beliefs, then some minimal level of respect for the beliefs of others is required, and that others are at least as capable of independent thought as yourself.

Actually, I’m told that all participants here are required to respect all religious beliefs.

@Dan_Eastwood

I would set that bar at “the laws of physics are foundational to all other beliefs”, starting with “Let there be light”. If you cannot deal with that very minimal constraint, then no one else should be expected to give your ideas any consideration at all.

I don’t believe the Flood violated physics. Our limited knowledge of both physics and the actual events that occurred 4500 years ago is not a violation of physics.