Viruses and the Problem of Evil

One other point: those “unprotected” were not just the Egyptians responsible for enslaving the Israelites. I can’t speak to the wording used in the original, but the NIV has the deaths extending “to the firstborn son of the female slave, who is at her hand mill.” So if the crime Egypt is committing, for which this is retribution, is the enslavement of the Israelites, those punished for it include other people who are enslaved by the Egyptians.

Some translations have “servant” instead of slave, and I have no knowledge of the underlying original text, but it’s clear from the details of how the event works, with the blood on doorways, that other slaves must have been included among the victims of the slaughter.

Now, one can say that there may be an explanation for this that one cannot see or understand. But if that’s so, it’s an explanation that nobody else can see or understand, either, and anyone who knows people who have lost a child knows that intentionally inflicting such a thing upon someone is an evil act by any known standard.

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It is difficult for skeptical atheists like myself to take a position where someone is assumed to be moral no matter what they do. Tom Hanks’ character in the movie “Angels and Demons” probably came the closest to expressing my own feelings on the matter when he said (paraphrasing) “God didn’t gift me with faith”.

We can read and understand the position theists take, but we can’t understand the logic or reasoning on a more empathic level. We also understand that theists are probably just as frustrated as we are trying to fully communicate their position. It is probably one of those agree to disagree learning experiences.

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Indeed. That, it seems to me, is the opposite of morality. It bears some relation to the childhood experience of rules of behavior (“because I’m your mother, that’s why!”) but it doesn’t bear any relation to moral philosophy or ethical reasoning, except as a counterexample to what would constitute a proper ethical system.

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It’s possible that’s because no conceivable evidence would do it. You set aside evidence as having an explanation you “can’t see or understand”, which is sufficient answer for (again) any conceivable evidence.

Are you trying to equate these two responses? I so, I would object.

The evidence of resurrection is feeble, so I’m guessing that your private experiences are the main impetus here. Of course they aren’t accessible to other people, which puts them outside the sort of evidence I’m considering. One may just hope you think about them skeptically every so often.

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No, the two arguments are certainly not equal, but I think a comparison illustrates my point. I certainly have unanswered questions, but those unanswered questions do not automatically negate what I know and what I have experienced.

Yes, my personal experiences are stronger evidence to me, although I would not characterize the evidence for the resurrection as feeble.

I do. Do you think about your atheism skeptically every so often?

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Well, I do examine the evidence, and I must say it seems much stronger than the available evidence (once again not taking into account the purely personal evidence that seems to have convinced you) favoring theism, much less Christianity.

Also, “feeble” seems to be exactly the right word, whereas the evidence from scripture seems quite strong: either it isn’t the candid word of God or God does much evil. There doesn’t seem a third option.

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Do you keep in mind that evidence of a metaphysical God is not all physical in nature?

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Could you provide an example of the evidence you have in mind?

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Mileage may vary, but I find it compelling that humans possess much more in the way of intangible characteristics, particularly of the mind, than the closest of our biological relatives. It seems reasonable that the complexity of the human mind is a matter of more than a greater number of neurons.

Another interesting question that borders a bit on physics/metaphysics is the ancient question of why anything exists.

Completely in the realm of the physical, the incredible complexity, intricacy, and beauty of life and evolution are highly suggestive of a Creator. Even the simplest of cells scientists can study today is full of wonder and a myriad of discoveries yet to be made. (For the record, my thinking is much more along the lines of “id” rather than “ID”.)

Granted, these don’t specifically address the Christian God, but when added to my personal experience, these are the types of things that give me confidence in my belief.

What sort of evidence do you use to refute the existence of God?

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I have to say they don’t seem like much, more wishful thinking than anything else. It still seems that your personal experience is coloring your reaction to everything else.

Well, the most telling would be the lack of evidence. God used to go around making himself manifest all the time. After the time of Moses or thereabouts he cut way down on the personal appearances, and in historical times there’s literally nothing. We would expect God to leave some kind of tracks. There is of course also the titular problem of evil, which admittedly only affects a good god. And, though this is similar to the first thing, lack of evidence, there’s no need for God as an explanation for anything we see. “I had no need of that hypothesis”. The fact that you can’t come up with anything beyond what Michael Behe would point to is telling for me. So why not “ID”?

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It’s a greater number of neurons.

We have access to far more information than other apes. And this is because we are a social species, and we share information within the community.

In effect, I am making use of other people’s neurons, because of the way that we share information. So it really is a greater number of neurons. But we have to count the neurons of the other people who help inform us. It’s not enough to count the only neurons in one’s own head.

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I think it must be more than that. It also has something to do with the way those neurons are connected. But I suspect that isn’t what @cwhenderson had in mind.

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Well, sure.

This isn’t surprising to me since Behe and I probably think a lot alike. To both of us, the natural world is suggestive of a Creator. I’m pretty sure you were not expecting me to produce unassailable evidence supporting my position :slight_smile:.

Where I differ from Behe is that I believe that what we can see in the living world today can be fully explained by natural processes that the Creator put into place when “something” really did come from “nothing”. In contrast, Behe believes that the natural processes first put into motion are insufficient and require occasional additional divine intervention.

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Is there evidence that complicated activities like aesthetic appreciation and complex emotion are merely products of more neurons and more complex networks?

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Myself, I do not think that the existence of the gods can be “refuted,” which is really a word best employed to speak of strict logical disproof in any event. But I think, judging from these questions, that you have the notion that atheism is a positive assertion when it’s generally not.

I can’t speak for John Harshman, of course, but for myself, the state of not-being-persuaded of the existence of paranormal entities is not really a “belief.” It’s just an observation that there is not enough evidence of the existence of any of the gods to justify believing in them. And that non-belief isn’t limited to any particular god, but the general proposition “there are no gods” isn’t something one can demonstrate. What one can demonstrate, if the evidence is there, is the existence of some particular god.

So – and recognizing that your questions were not directed to me, but kibitzing in my usual way – I would say that “skepticism” is probably not the term to describe acknowledging that evidence could always turn up for a proposition one does not think is supported by sufficient competent evidence. But do I review my views? Of course, on this and on many other subjects. But at this stage, it’s not very likely that the evidentiary picture’s going to change much. A paranormal being is claimed to exist. The only evidence for it is the existence of a folkloric tradition which asserts that such-and-such impossible things once happened and that the happening of these things attests to the existence of the entity to which, in the stories, they are credited. We cannot investigate the facts directly but what we can do is note that in every modern case where claims of a similar character are made, they are false. We cannot validate claims like this using the methods of history, because to make judgments about history one has got to have a plausibility criterion and the only way to get paranormal entities into history is to throw that criterion out, opening Pandora’s box and awakening every paranormal story ever told by anyone, all to take their spots in history if they cannot be demonstrated to be false – which history cannot do.

One is always asked to keep an open mind on these things. But open for what? Nobody ever produces novel evidence. The great paranormal spirits of which religion speaks never turn up, never do anything, never make themselves manifest, but are said to have done it once, quite a while ago.

And so the gods of all the religions are pretty much all as well established as the Flying Spaghetti Monster. There is no a priori basis for claiming that they cannot exist, and no evidentiary basis for claiming that they do, unless we reach into such bodies of evidence as history, which is incompetent to support such claims. One does not “refute” such things, and if they were not of great importance to our culture and politics, nobody would bother to rebut them, either.

The request, from me, to those advocating for belief in a religion has always been simple: give me evidence. Not evidence that might convince “someone,” but evidence upon which a reasonable person, applying reasonable criteria, might rely without having to assume the truth of some big chunk of the paranormal to begin with; evidence which makes declining to acknowledge the truth of the religion unreasonable. That’s what does it in every other field of inquiry; but religious claims seldom even bother to take a step up that hill.

As for me, I don’t see it. I have looked, and looked, and looked, and not just for this particular paranormal being: for any of them. For any sign that there is a spirit world at all, for any sign that anything exists other than matter and energy. So the question of “refuting” or even of rebutting particular claims about particular paranormal beings never really comes up. I haven’t seen so much of a threshold showing, from any religion: a prima facie case that would say, “on this evidence, it is unreasonable to withhold assent.”

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How would you characterise the evidence for Joseph Smith’s Golden Plates?

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Indeed. For some reason tens of thousands of years of human social and cultural development are so often overlooked.

Does anybody really think that a Paleolitihic human would have been able to sit down and write Beethoven’s ‘Eroica’?

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This is a huge difference that seems to completely contradict what you said before. If natural processes produced humans, then what was all that about the complexity of the human mind compared to other animals? How do you tell natural processes put into place by God from natural processes, period?

One of the great typos of all time.

No, I generally agree with you. Earlier, John had mentioned evidence for his atheism and I was merely wondering what he had in mind.