Why a Scientific Realist Should Be a Moral Realist Too?

All human knowledge is ultimately based on one thing: shared universal human perception. The scientific method, meaning things like predictions, falsifications, measurements by very accurate and sensitive instruments, reproducibility, repeatability, and so on, is, when you think deeply about it, nothing more than extensions, refinements, cross-checks, and repetitions of that same thing: shared human perception.

Take the electron’s negative charge. How do you know it is negatively charged? You perform this and that experiment and observe the result. But ultimately, that result is still just an experience inside your mind. But an Australian team in a different part of the world repeated the experiment and got the same result." The same result = the same experience as yours in America. So, in the end, that is just shared perception being cross-checked.

You can then predict that it will repel a positively charged thing. Fine, but how do you know this? Just an observed experience inside your mind of the two repelling, and so on.

So, if you cannot trust shared human perception as indicative of an objective reality, then the entire scientific enterprise becomes, at the deepest level, just a massive high precision human dream. Maybe, in aliens’ minds, for example, reality appears very differently and is governed by very different laws.

If the starting point is a collective dream rather than an objective reality triggering those experiences inside you, then everything based on it is still a dream. You can cross-check, predict, falsify, measure, and reproduce a dream that is being created by your own mind, but you are still doing all of those things within the same experiential framework, rather than establishing an objective reality outside of it that is triggering those experiences inside you. If the Sun is just a shared dream, then predictions of the Sun’s movement, observed effects of its existence, or whatever method you use to verify it are just verification of a shared dream, not of an objective thing.

So, if we trust and say that universal shared human perception of something = it is objective, and that all minds, even alien minds, will agree with us about it, for example, they will agree that the electron is negatively charged, that the Sun burns rather than freezes, etc. Then why not apply the same thing to moral awareness?

Don’t we all humans have a universal moral awareness that justice is good and injustice is bad? Even if we awfully disagree about what is just and what is unjust, we all still agree on the general principle that justice is good and injustice is bad across cultures and times. You will never find someone who says, for example, “Betrayal of trust is a very good thing, bro.” He does it and knows internally that it is wrong. You won’t find anyone who says, “Helping an orphan is a very bad thing to do and is evil,” etc.

We all universally have this kind of universal moral awareness, so why not let it be an objective moral reality triggering those experiences inside of us, rather than something we invented to help us survive and cooperate and nothing else!?

If you say the human mind self-invents these moral illusions for our evolutionary benefits, then why not say the same thing about the sensory experiences your mind produces?

Haven’t evolution alos shaped our auditory cortex, for example? So why not conclude that these auditory things we hear are just illusions as well, like morals, and do not correspond to objective sounds?

What naturalists already say about morality can exactly be said about sensory perception.

The mathematical physicist Chetan Prakash proved a theorem that states that, according to evolutionary theory and natural selection, any organism capable of perceiving truth or reality as it actually is would not be more fit than another organism at the same level of biological complexity that does not perceive anything about reality at all, but is merely programmed to be more efficient.

We have been shaped through natural selection to develop senses that keep us alive. If I see what appears to me to be a snake, I will not grab it; and if I see what appears to me to be a train, I will not stand in front of it, regardless of whether there is actually a train or a snake there or not. These representations evolved to keep us alive, so we have to take them seriously. But it is logically mistaken to think that taking these representations seriously means believing that reality is actually the way it appears to us.

That’s why you have people like Donald Hoffman and his interface theory of perception!

So, in a nutshell, if you trust shared human perception as indicative of objective reality – the Sun is an objective thing out there, and its existence triggers those experiences inside our consciousness, and other alien consciousnesses, for example, they will agree with us that it is very hot plasma, produces heat, revolves around the center of the Milky Way, etc rather than believing that our minds self-create illusions that may appear differently in other minds, that also self-create their own worlds, then you should accept objective moral reality that triggers that same universal, shared human moral awareness as well. So even aliens will agree that justice is good and injustice is bad.

And you cannot bypass this issue through the scientific method whether by predictions, falsifications, measurements, reproducibility, or causal contact between yourself and other objects because all of these approaches ultimately rest on a single assumption: that shared human perception equates to objective reality, triggering experiences within you.

But if shared human perception is instead a shared dream, then from the very start, everything built upon it remains merely a dream. Repetitions, extensions, or cross-checks within that dream do not transform it into objective reality; they merely produce a high-precision dream. Science, then, becomes a high-precision dream, and morality a medium-precision dream but both remain dreams nonetheless.

Your contrast is between realism and the idea of a collective dream.

I see this as a false dichotomy. There are other possibilities, such as pragmatism, instrumentalism.

You talk of “shared human perception”. But we share the perception of the sun going around our world (i.e. geocentrism). Yet most of us acknowledge that geocentrism is wrong.

This would appear to be more of a tautology or a matter of definition than “a universal moral awareness”. So I would suggest that no, we do not have such a “universal moral awareness”.

Does “he”? I’m fairly sure there are some cultures and sub-cultures that regard deception of outgroup-members as morally acceptable. It does not need to be “a very good thing” not to be “wrong”.

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If there is such a thing as “objective” morality, which I think is what you are describing, then this theorem should also apply. There would be no advantage to perceiving the real/true/objective morality when the organism can be programmed to behave morally. We might say that religion serves as a way to carry this programming forward over generations.

That said, I agree that scientific thought will tend to refine morality in the same way it refines a hypothesis, with the results accepted as provisionally true only until a better hypothesis can be tested.

To cut to the chase: yes, in fact, I have looked at my hand. Really LOOKED at it.

-smothered cough-

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I have a number of thoughts on this issue:

First, we don’t actually perceive morality. It’s an evaluation.

Second, morality includes cultural elements - which are surely subjective - yet do not feel like something qualitatively different from more widely agreed aspects.

Third, morality is at least in part, learned rather than inherent. We put considerable effort into teaching children right from wrong.

Fourth, we have no objective way of dealing with moral disputes. All we have is agreed values and when appeals to those fail to resolve the issue there is no recourse.

I will grant that widespread agreement indicates something objective, but it is not sufficient to identify what that is. Optical illusions, after all, work because of limitations of the human visual system - but those limitations are the objective factor.

i would say that it is hard to see how being in line with an objective morality would promote fitness. On the other hand it does seem to me that behaviours that promote fitness would seem “right”. So, for morality I think it likely that the objective basis of moral agreement is promotion of group fitness, rather than any objective “rightness”. After all morality simply tells us what we - or others - “should” do.

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If this person really “proved a theorem,” I can’t find it published anywhere.

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I think they may be referring to this:

[PDF]

## Abstract

Does natural selection favor veridical percepts—those that accurately (if not exhaustively) depict objective reality? Perceptual and cognitive scientists standardly claim that it does. Here we formalize this claim using the tools of evolutionary game theory and Bayesian decision theory. We state and prove the “Fitness-Beats-Truth (FBT) Theorem” which shows that the claim is false: If one starts with the assumption that perception involves inference to states of the objective world, then the FBT Theorem shows that a strategy that simply seeks to maximize expected-fitness payoff, with no attempt to estimate the “true” world state, does consistently better. More precisely, the FBT Theorem provides a quantitative measure of the extent to which the fitness-only strategy dominates the truth strategy, and of how this dominance increases with the size of the perceptual space. The FBT Theorem supports the Interface Theory of Perception (e.g. Hoffman et al. in Psychon Bull Rev Client Challenge, 2015), which proposes that our perceptual systems have evolved to provide a species-specific interface to guide adaptive behavior, and not to provide a veridical representation of objective reality.

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It is called fitness-beats-truth theorem;

But if shared perception is just a massive dream, then you don’t actually perceive the physical world either; it is just internal mental imagery inside you, just like internal moral awareness. I argue that we do perceive a moral world through our intellect, not through our senses, based on the same thing: shared, universal conscious states.

Science also contains culturally shaped elements, but you don’t infer from that that the physical world is merely a cultural construction.

Scientific knowledge is also learned, yet we don’t conclude that scientific truths are therefore subjective. A child isn’t born knowing physics, mathematics, or the scientific method; they acquire those through education and experience.

  • try to find “Chetan Prakash proof”
  • find only details of his arrest on firearm charges
  • conclude there is no such proof
  • reject conclusions of post.

This was the first result when I searched up “Chetan Prakash mathematician”: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Chetan-Prakash-2

Nevertheless the fact that we seem to perceive an external reality is different from something we do not even seem to perceive.