YEC and its critics: is there a way forward?

[nwrickert (Neil Rickert)]

@Rich_Hampton

It’s less than ideal to have r_speir represent the YEC

I take him as representing the @r_speir viewpoint.

[PatH]

“YEC and its critics: is there a way forward?”

Should there be? It’s only in the still-hyper-religious US that YECs are taken seriously (and that’s mostly among fellow YECs only, it seems). In the UK, for example, anyone with YEC beliefs would just be considered bonkers.

There are theological discussions to be had, sure. But in terms of scientific discussions on a site like this (which, let’s face it, is NOT where scientific issues get decided), the only way forward would be for YECs/YLCs to actually learn what they are arguing against. That ain’t gonna happen.

How many times do we have to inform certain posters about natural selection?
How many times do we have to inform certain posters about nested hierarchies?

And these are just the basics. It astounds me how people who admit that “science is not my thing” will nevertheless try to argue the science from a position of almost complete ignorance. The arrogance, the sheer lack of humility, amazing. Would Jesus approve?

[Jonathan_Burke]

@PatH

Should there be? It’s only in the still-hyper-religious US that YECs are taken seriously (and that’s mostly among fellow YECs only, it seems). In the UK, for example, anyone with YEC beliefs would just be considered bonkers.

This. The only reason to be concerned about YECs is in proportion to the harm they cause to others.

@PatH

There are theological discussions to be had, sure. But in terms of scientific discussions on a site like this (which, let’s face it, is NOT where scientific issues get decided), the only way forward would be for YECs/YLCs to actually learn what they are arguing against. That ain’t gonna happen.

That ain’t going to happen.

@PatH

How many times do we have to inform certain posters about natural selection? How many times do we have to inform certain posters about nested hierarchies?

Every time, apparently.

[Mercer (John Mercer)]

@RonSewell

Progress cannot be made on the basis of evidence, because in the YEC world, it is an axiom that evidence is always subject to two interpretations, which is decided according to your worldview

They say that, but it is not true.

The reality is that evidence that YECs cannot interpret is simply ignored and/or discarded, while they continue to knowingly, falsely, and deliberately claim that they are interpreting all the evidence.

[DaleCutler]

Both are true. Evidence that they accept is subject to two interpretations, and other evidence they just ignore or discard.

[Argon]

@DarrenG

Fun fact: the well-known absence of C-14 in coal is used to determine if Vanilla is genuine. Real plant based vanilla is radio-active, the imitation stuff made from petrochemicals isn’t.

Yeah, you can try making tritiated versions of artificial vanilla but it just doesn’t give it the same beta-particle ‘kick’ on the tongue as real vanilla.

[DaleCutler]

@Argon

it just doesn’t give it the same beta-particle ‘kick’

Ha, that’s funny. As we speak, so to speak, I’m waiting for beta radiation therapy for my Dupuytren’s contracture.

[Faizal_Ali]

Yes, that happened. Four years ago. Crom only knows why you’re bringing this up now

[gbrooks9 (GeorgeB)]

@Faizal_Ali ,

One Atheist complains that i have no samples.

Another complains about an old example.

Gentlemen,

Firstly, nothing has changed in 4 years.
Secondly, there is no index for discussions that breakout into Atheism.

When i bump into one, i report it. But only if i continue to get protests that i have no evidence!

[John_Harshman]

@gbrooks9

One Atheist complains that i have no samples.

You don’t, you know. Nothing about atheism in this particular supposed example. It’s very difficult to take you seriously.

[Faizal_Ali]

@gbrooks9

One Atheist complains that i have no samples.

Another complains about an old example.

Well, actually, no. I am perplexed that you went back four years to resurrect a comment that seems to have no relevance to what anyone is currently discussing, including yourself.

Now you seem to imply that it IS relevant to something we have been discussing, and I remain just as perplexed. The relevance, if any, remains completely unclear.

[gbrooks9 (GeorgeB)]

@Faizal_Ali

Now you seem to imply that it IS relevant to something we have been discussing, and I remain just as perplexed. The relevance, if any, remains completely unclear

@Faizal_Ali

Im reaching the conclusion that you and a few others are gas-lighting me.

[John_Harshman]

@gbrooks9

Im reaching the conclusion that you and a few others are gas-lighting me.

I suppose you would find just about anything more palatable than the idea that you were mistaken.

[Tim]

It should be noted that the complained-about comment, as well as being 4 1/2 years old, (i) was made by Jonathan_Burke, a Christadelphian not an atheist, who (ii) hasn’t been seen on this forum for nearly 3 years and hasn’t posted in nearly 4, and (iii) the comment appears to have been censored by moderation (the quote of it shows as having been made on this thread, but there are no surviving posts by Burke on that thread).

This is evidence of ongoing hegemonic hostility of atheists towards YEC (or was it ID, or was it Theistic Evolution – the accusation never stays the same – sometimes not even in the same post)?

Addendum: it should be also noted that (i) Burke does not mention disproving God (hardly surprising admittedly, as he’s not an atheist) & (ii) that, although his tone may be blunt, the actual contents of his comment would not seem at any great variance with the general view that the pro-science community (theistic or atheistic) has of YEC. To impeach these contents, I think you’d first have to demonstrate some piece of distinctively-YEC research that has been of demonstrable, substantive benefit to society.

[Tim]

Tutorial post

The complaint has been made that “there is no index for discussions that breakout into Atheism”.

I would point out that this problem can easily solved by using the forum’s ‘Search’ function. For example, if somebody wanted to find all the times that I’ve posted claiming to disprove the existence of God, they could type in:

You can, further, order these posts by latest ones first, yielding this list.

Similarly, for Faizal_Ali and for John_Harshman.

Of course this will also include all our mentions of God in other contexts but, if we spend as much time talking about disproving God as it is claimed we do, this should not be a major problem. Further, the search can be narrowed down by inclusion of additional search terms like “existence”, “disprove”, etc, etc.

I use this technique all the time in tracking down half-remembered conversations to refresh my memory.

So a lack of an “index” cannot be taken as preventing presentation of evidence that atheists on this forum are repeatedly claiming to disprove the existence of God, as part of their counterarguments to Creationist claims.

[gbrooks9 (GeorgeB)]

@John_Harshman

anything [is] more palatable than the idea that you were mistaken

@John_Harshman :

I think you will eventually find you and your atheist peers arent doing anyone any favors by stubbornly waving the “A” banner.

[Gisteron]

@Tim

So a lack of an “index” cannot be taken as preventing presentation of evidence that atheists on this forum are repeatedly claiming to disprove the existence of God, as part of their counterarguments to Creationist claims.

I’d go even further and say that even if there were no facilities to aid one in collecting such evidence, it would still be the claimant’s responsibility to present some, if they wished to make a credible case. That it may be prohibitively tedious in a world without a search button is no doubt a bummer, but surely not anybody else’s problem. One was, after all, free, to not make claims one felt unable or was unwilling to substantiate, what ever the reason, or admit upon the first challenge that they were not based on external evidence one was willing or able to present.

[Tim]

Gadzooks! It seems that George has found out about our super-secret atheist club room where we hold our super-secret “A”-banner waving and “we disprove the existence of God”-chanting nights. And after we went to all the trouble of sabotaging the “Atheism”-index in the Discourse software, & hiding them away from the software’s search engine. Curses! Foiled again! We’ll just have to change the locks, secret knocks and secret handshakes.

[Faizal_Ali]

@gbrooks9

I think you will eventually find you and your atheist peers arent doing anyone any favors by stubbornly waving the “A” banner.

Well. let’s take stock, shall we? Since your post remains hidden, I will restore the comment you quoted to facilitate discussion:

@r_speir

@Jonathan_Burke

Yes there is, and it looks like science. YEC does not advance society as science does, because YEC is dislocated from reality. This is why YECs who actually work in real scientific fields have to practice an extreme compartmentalism, putting their YEC beliefs on hold in order to practice actual science and engineering.

Your language is inflammatory. I for one will not be reading your VERY LARGE paste.

What we have here: A YEC responding to a comment from a Christian, whose language you described as mild and measured, or words to that effect (going by memory).

The YEC responds by accusing his fellow believer (again, I remind you, not an atheist) of using “inflammatory” language, and declaring that he will not read his comment.

It is also puzzling that the comment @r_speir was supposedly responding to be cannot be found. (The link redirects to a completely different comment by someone else entirely.)

To find this comment, you had to go back four years.

Now, for those of us in the back: Could you please explain how the comment you quoted supports your contention that creationists in this group are being dissuaded from accepting evolution because atheists are constantly talking about atheism? Explain it to me like I’m a very stupid child.

[John_Harshman]

@gbrooks9

I think you will eventually find you and your atheist peers arent doing anyone any favors by stubbornly waving the “A” banner.

Who’s waving that banner? You have been able to find no examples, or at least all your claimed examples are nothing of the sort. Talk about stubborn? This is downright pathological.