My mention of cultural transfer was more to point out that what came of the Aztec/Mayan/Olmec cultures were not without outside influence. They were not completely isolated. What came of them is not entirely “home-grown”. This should be taken into consideration.
Don’t blame me. You’re the one who brought it up and keep redefining it.
If this is Flinders Petrie’s [sorry, wrong archaeologist; I meant Woolley] flood stratum, notice that it was a much more local affair than you think, as the stratum doesn’t appear even a few miles away.
Wouldn’t it have the completely opposite effect of gathering the families all in one place, i.e. in a river valley? Why, if they began in Sumer, wouldn’t they just all stay in that valley?
Why are you leaving out China and America?
You may believe that, but there seems no evidence of any such thing.
I don’t think there is evidence of that, and I don’t see why it needs to be taken into consideration either. I believe there is some slight evidence of contact between Mesopotamia and the Harappan civilization. But we know nothing of the religion or myths of the Harappan culture.
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Yes, I’m familiar with the evidence. I don’t know the extent of the flood, only that it was local. But I do know that it appears to have had a direct impact on the city of Ur, as its silt deposit found at that site falls between Ubaid and Uruk period artifacts. And both Genesis and the Sumerian king’s list corroborate the flood coming just before the establishment of the city of Uruk (3800BC).
After the 5.9 kiloyear event turned the region into desert it was not an easy place to occupy. The Sumerians invented irrigation systems that made this possible.
I think what’s most significant here is the fact that all three of these cultures arose within a couple of centuries of one another. For something as momentous as a writing system to be invented three different times in three different languages by three different cultures sets these apart.
“Despite their relatively ‘late’ invention of some technologies and mathematical concepts, the fact that they reached the same conclusions practically isolated from the wider world is a true testament to their sophistication.” - 9 Incredible Mayan Inventions and Achievements and One They Missed
Were they “isolated”?
Considering just the commonality between writing symbols of the Olmec (parent culture of the Aztecs/Mayans) and the Shang Dynasty era of China I’d say it’s certainly worth considering …
Yes. Definitely. Did you even read the abstract of the document you just linked? “they do not show any resemblance to Chinese characters”
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Yes, I did. Like you said, “any crackpot can post to Academia”. He’s challenging, as he should. But this paper included Xu’s screenshots of examples, so I used them.
There’s another indicator beyond Xu’s proposal that lends credence to this possibility in my view. There’s a significant behavior change across humanity that can be tracked throughout it’s progression.
According to this view, all of humanity pre-Adam falls under the category of “matrist”. The opposite of that, “patrist”, are the characteristics that began to emerge in human populations when they came into contact with the descendants of Adam//Noah.
I’ll include a full list of characteristics, but the key ones of note are …
Matrist - Egalitarian
Patrist - Male-dominance/ Class stratification
These characteristics preceed the emergence of civilization and advanced societies in every case. For instance, the first phase of Sumer …
“The Ubaid period as a whole, based upon the analysis of grave goods, was one of increasingly polarised social stratification and decreasing egalitarianism.” - Ubaid period - Wikipedia
As for the Americas …
“there were three main patrist areas of the Americas: Caribbean Mesoamerica (that is, where the Aztecs and Maya lived), Peru (where the Incas lived) and also the north-west Pacific )of the north-west coast of Canada, including present-day British Columbia).” - James DeMeo, Saharasia
This is the influence of Adam/Eve, the result of the fall and right in line with what God told them would happen. This is the “evil” the bible speaks of, coming into the world through Adam.
James Demeo is a Reichian crackpot. You shouldn’t pay all that much attention to him. I remember when he was using his orgone accumulator to make clouds disappear.
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Yeah, there’s a lot of crackpots out there (I’ve been accused of being one) and I’m aware of his Reichian leanings. But none of that has to do with this, other than his borrowing of Reich’s “armouring” concept to explain why this behavior change happened. I disagree with his ‘why’, but do not discount the research behind the when/where.
I wouldn’t count on a crackpot to deal honestly with the evidence, so would not rely on the truth of anything he presents as evidence. If you can’t find it in a mainstream source, you should be suspicious.
I appreciate it, but I don’t go only by his research. His research does go a long way to establish the pattern and spread, but whether or not a culture was egalitarian to hierarchical can be confirmed through other archaeological sources.
If he said it was raining, I’d look out the window first. If he cites a reference, better look up the reference to see if it really says that (and is a legitimate scholarly work too).
I certainly do. I traced his progression through place and time and looked into each group/culture along the way. There really is a trend here. A progression that began right there in Sumer first, before anywhere else. And it spread out from there. With it came male dominance, class stratification, government, cities, writing, etc.
Steve Taylor’s book, The Fall, is really good in this regard. He also tracks along DeMeo’s lines and delves deeper into each group along the way, equating this behavior change to the inspiration behind Fall narratives…
“There broke out … all manner of evil, and shame fled, and truth and faith. In place of these came deceits and trickery and treachery and force and the accursed love of possession … And the land, hitherto a common possession like the light of the sun and the breezes, the careful surveyor now marked out with long boundary lines.” - Roman poet Ovid
Personal possession was another development that came about here.
Hindu-Chinese influence in Olmec statues …
I have difficulty supposing that you’re serious. Please affirm if so.
Completely.
Olmec Shiva
"A few hundred miles from the Olmec heartland is the cave and archaeological site of Juxtlahuaca, which contains the earliest sophisticated cave art in Mesoamerica. The most well-known of the cave art is Painting 1, which has been dated by archaeologist Michael Coe to the Olmec period (c.1200 – 900 BCE) and contains Olmec motifs.
The painting shows a tall bearded person,holding a long snake or snake-like object in one hand, and a trident in the other, intimidating a small figure crouched in front of him. The man has long black hair reaching up to his ankles, and his arms and legs are covered with jaguar fur. He is wearing an elaborate headpiece, with wavy lines coming out of it."*
I’m afraid this is von Daniken level scholarship at best. I don’t think we have anything to discuss.
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Well that’s disappointing. Thank you for your time.
See, this is the problem I have. I agree its ‘von Daniken’ level ridiculous. Yet i can’t find a good solid thing to point to to say ‘this is why this is ridiculous’ so I can let it go and stop pulling people into discussions about it. Things just keep lining up in further support of it.
Yeah, from here that characterization doesn’t seem accurate.
So do you find it ridiculous? Can you tell me why, specifically, you find it so?
I thought you found it ridiculous. If you don’t see it yourself just based on your last picture of Olmec statues next to guys doing yoga, there’s nothing we can say to each other.
This Olmec discussion is beside the point anyway. Part of the whole Polytheism side track. It’s clear their mythology doesn’t fit the bill. What I’m pointing out happens on the other side of the world.
But, relevant or not, I don’t get what you find ridiculous about the yoga poses. And the cave art is hitting the nail right on the head, isn’t it? With the trident, the snake, and the jaguar fur, its pretty apparent the earliest of the Olmecs were creating a depiction of the Hindu god Shiva 2500 years before Columbus.
This isn’t crude renderings of markings on worn down stones drawn next to Chinese characters. This is much more specific and direct.
What am I missing?