An exhortation from Greg on Genesis, miracles, and natural evil

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#1

I am really sorry John to interject. I care for you and for folks like yourself and so i feel compelled to put out an explanation to your reasoning.

If you were to ask 100 children if they thought that the earth, life forms, families etc just popped into existence out of thin air, 99 of them would typically laugh at the silliness of such a proposition. They would typically point to Creator God. They are right! It takes these children growing into adults who tend towards pride, self reliance, and all sorts of psychological tools in themselves to hamper the initial childlike understanding.

Jesus himself says let the children come to me as heaven belongs to such as these…you see, faith in God is not normally found in our loaded intellectual pursuits but rather in just childlike acceptance where one lays down the complications of preconceived notions and attitudes and chooses to just place faith in the God whom they know created the cosmos.

There are so many Scriptures about this…one of which where Paul says “Jews look for signs and Gentiles seek wisdom.” He relays instead the importance of rather childlike faith in Jesus saving us by the cross.

The sincerity and counter cultural ideas here make this true in my mind. Marketing agents waft greed for money and the desire for notariety in sellling goods and services. The gospel spins this on its head.

I encourage you to read 1 Cor chapter 1, if you truly have interest to learn Christian theology. The transformative and transcendent beauty of such passages bring me goosebumps. If you are looking for a miracle, passages like this is the miracle you are looking for and the gospel power that took my miserable existence in college and transformed me blows my mind… even this week, as i have been on vacation and actually took time to remember the way i used to be! As i thought on these, i was almost embarrased over myself! But God is so good. He is the Creator responsible for the beginning of the universe. And He cares for us all on an individual basis and true wisdom seeks Him and finds Him as i did as a college sophomore and my sin has been taken away as far as the east is from the west!

Off we go to play putt putt. Catch up later if you have further inquiry…otherwise i hope others will answer with Biblical wisdom! His Blessings to you!

Is PS Against Using Scientific Arguments as Evidence for God's Existence?
#2

And that’s where you go off the rails immediately. I bet those 100 children think Bert and Ernie are real people too. And Santa Claus. And the tooth fairy.

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#3

Thats not what i mean…not in the sense of who, but rather the idea of our existence equates to the One who caused it. Barney’s magic kingdom is associated with, guess who…Barney. it takes an adult to associate all the almost magical natural beauty as well as the precision the planets have as they revolve around stars to nothing. So to repeat Paul: seeing the created world equates to everyone knowing theres a Creator who made it and it is really our mounting human baggage that suppresses this as fact.

The other thing i appreciate about children whom my wife and i are enjoying our three on this vacation is that they have a sense of humble dependence upon their parents who love them and who would gladly take a bullet if it would save them. The God of Scripture is a God of love who cares for all peoples of all of the world, but He can only show this if we allow Him. There is no earning Him, no working for a wage to pay Him. Rather, it is He that provides for us for the asking. And He cares enough to give commands and precepts that are for our benefit and which illuminate His goodness when obeyed.

#4

You can repeat that all you like, but it doesn’t make it true. Now, it’s true that there’s an innate human tendency to impute agency to everything, including TV remotes, the wind, and rivers. That’s where primitive animism comes from, and that’s where your God comes from.

Why? I thought he was omnipotent.

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#5

@greg,

Again, and again, and AGAIN… followed by again and again…

You keep the needle of your dispute index in the high numbers by constantly contrasting the IRRELEVANCY of ID… with the IRRELEVANCY of Godless Evolution.

You are a parasite on the forehead of PeacefulScience…

Because you nurture yourself on the divisions you can foment… rather than touch on the topic at hand: God’s ability to create life through INEXPLICABLE special creation AND by EXPLICABLE evolutionary processes as well.

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#6

It won’t do you any good to shout. He can’t hear you anyway.

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#7

Last time i checked, Scripture says that God created kinds and called this “good” Additionally, Eve is considered the first female human, the mother of all the living. The leaders of this website call it a Christian website yet make the claim that there is an alignment with mainstream science in the arena of evolution which tells a story quite contrary to Scripture. Who is really being divisive?

#8

Uppercase is construed as shouting if it is done for an entire sentence.

If there was an easy way to make a sentence SMALLER… and thus use regular sized letters to indicate emphasis… I am sure everyone would be delighted.

So pretend that is what I’m actually doing.

#9

@Greg,

And so … your ignorance is rushing ahead of your words.
You seem quite oblivious to the fact Genesis is awarding an ancient “title” to Eve that was first dedicated to a goddess. Much like the pope taking over the title Pontifex Maximus, which was originally a pagan title for a pagan priestly role!

The goddess Ninti was created to cure Enki’s ailing rib… and the word “Ti” could be translated from Cuneiform to mean “rib” or “living”. Eve has been categorized with a title that implies she is a Goddess… and even the word play seems deliberately intended to honor the pagan origins of Sumerian metaphysics: this goddess is connected to the very rib of ENKI!

One might argue that the Sumerians took the original word play from Genesis … but the wordplay actually fits the Sumerian context better, especially since the Sumerian priests had no reticence to call their Ninti “goddess/lady” of the Rib and of the Living.

The fact you don’t grasp what any of this means helps your audience understand why you don’t lend your voice to the simple truth that God can create things any way he wants to.

And since there are mounds and mounds, and millions of years worth, of evidence … it is to God’s glory that you understand how and why God would make things through special creation - - and through evolutionary processes.

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#10

That’s what you tell yourself, but I bet most people construe it as shouting. For the most part, you should let the words, not the typography, convey the message. That’s better writing.

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#11

The uppercase is not really working @gbrooks9. It does come off as yelling. Try using bold.

#12

Only a little better. It’s all best used very sparingly if at all. Repeat: let the words carry the message.

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#13

@swamidass

I’ll try using bold.

I should point out that the objection against using upper case for individual words is rather contrived.
Nobody goes around shouting individual but non-contiguous words of a sentence… so the whole logic of the complaint is flawed.

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#14

Sorry, but that looks as if you’re shouting the words “bold”, “shouting”, and “non-contiguous”. It’s a bizarre thing to do, but it just looks as your speech patterns are bizarre.

#15

@John_Harshman (cc @swamidass):

I find it bizarre that you think it is normal for you to perceive my written communications in the way you describe.

How can my using bold letters be confused with an oral behavior pattern that is non-existent in the real world?

It suggests that you are projecting some weirdness onto your surroundings… and expect everyone else to beat the drum to the same strange rhythms that you hear inside that noggin of yours.

Certainly you have demonstrated how very easily confused and disoriented you become … even if someone merely uses a metaphor to describe an analogy. I still remember the day you complained about an analogy because the structures referenced in the comparison weren’t really like that.

That was a doozy … it’s called “concrete thinking” … and it makes it difficult to efficiently communicate ideas to the person afflicted with such “concreteness”.

#16

So just to clarify: is this the official stance of the organization called “peaceful science?” I personally think that the whole Moses borrowing from another culture to build his story is the biggest load of garbage that i would fully expect such thinking from a unitarian universalist. On the other hand, this stance is quite contrary to Christianity and i personnally would classify as heresy. Could you have your Christian friends there at peaceful science confirm which side they are on because this would be quite telling. Please get back with us. In the meantine, i will put out warning to churches to be aware of the potential of this garbage influence being subtly inserted into the fold via books and resources in the name of “peace”

This is serious gbrooks9. These are not mere words. You contend with the living God who gives life.

#17

There’s really no need to get so defensive.

#18

@Greg, I will let @swamidass speak for Peaceful Science, if he wants, but I would point you to the Disclaimer, particularly:

Also note, there is no faith statement for Peaceful Science, it is an open forum where people from all walks of life and viewpoints and theologies (and lack thereof) are welcome to the conversation.

@Greg, I can appreciate your concern for truth and a defense of traditional views of biblical authorship and orthodox Christianity. That said, this is a forum where we can seek to understand each other better and “agree to disagree” where needed. The forum values good questions and good evidence in support of possible answers. You’ve made a point:

So rather than use it as an opportunity to attack somebody, perhaps now is the time to give some evidence for why your assertion should be considered. I know you believe it is “garbage” (and maybe you could find a different term), but I have no idea why you believe that except that you think it’s heresy. I have not seen any ecumenical council statements (Nicea, etc,) that indicate that “borrowing from another culture to build a story” is a heresy, but I’d be happy to consider evidence you provide to the contrary.

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#19

Bold letter are just fine @gbrooks9,

Spot on @Jordan

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#20

I did not call gbrooks garbage. I called the idea he presented garbage because that is what it is. If Adam and Eve are concoctions by the writer of Genesis, and OT prophets, Jesus and the apostles ALL acknowledge them as historical figures, to dismantle them as figures of imagination based on cultural myths is to attempt to completely dismantle the Christian faith. Additionally, if a universal unitarian encapsulates the negative above, then gbrooks is loved by God, but such a faith is not, and indeed hated by God and should be out of earshot or influence of the church.

I believe that God is real. And i believe that the Holy Spirit is a real Person of our triune God. And i know He is at work to cut out the ideas that man concocts that distort, discolor, and dishonor the very Name of God Almighty. If you think it wise to allow ideas to be presented by many here to flow without bringing them in the light of the glory of God of Scripture, then i believe that the Holy Spirit will do a work to convince you differently. If i am used as an instrument in this respect…taking time from my very vacation to do so and am called a “parasite” by @gbrooks9 for doing so, then im ok with that.

Isaiah 44 : Sing, O heavens, for the Lord has done it;
shout, O depths of the earth;
break forth into singing, O mountains,
O forest, and every tree in it!
For the Lord has redeemed Jacob,
and will be glorified in Israel.

24 Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer,
who formed you from the womb:
“I am the Lord, who made all things,
who alone stretched out the heavens,
who spread out the earth by myself,
25 who frustrates the signs of liars
and makes fools of diviners,
who turns wise men back
and makes their knowledge foolish,