Climate change likely caused migration, demise of ancient Indus Valley civilization

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A new study found evidence that climate change likely drove the Harappans to resettle far away from the floodplains of the Indus.

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@Patrick

  • You were sharing about climate change causing migration drove the Harappans to resettle far away from the floodplains of the Indus

  • Speaking of the Indus Valley, what does climate change mean to the Meena community? The local flood in Jalore, “Noah” or “Vaivaswat Manu,”

  • The Meena Community believes it has descended from this Manu

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More than climate, it was tectonic uplift that made Yamuna move eastward thus depriving the Harappan cities of water.

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@OneGod
Is that 1500 B.C.? The Yamuna River has moved eastward due to tectonic uplifts.

  • Has the Yamuna River already moved eastward when Vasudeva placed infant Krishna in a basket and carried him across the river to save him from being killed?

  • Did tectonic uplifts that moved the Yamuna River cause a pond that became poisonous because of snakes?

  • Because of my error in BC time, I believe I may have included another occurrence to this thread, the local flood at Jalore: “Vaivaswat Manu from 3212 to 2798 BC.” However, I’m curious what caused the local flood in Jalore compared to the tectonic uplift that caused the Yamuna river to move eastward.

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At 1500 BCE is was partly moved eastward. That led to the “OLd Yamuna” turning into a series of ponds. Thus the 6 of the 10 plagues of Moses are connected with water scarcity or stinking.

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@OneGod
Can you show me a map or draw your own map explaining visually (the river before and after) so that I can see visually where the Yamuna river was before and after it moved eastward, as well as where the river that created many ponds was? What exactly do you mean by “old Yamuna”? What does old mean in reference to the river?

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image
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The dashed lines are “Old Yamuna.” The ponds were lower down the dashed lines.

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Thank you, @OneGod for displaying your Yamuna River drawing. That was very helpful. This encourages me to write a story about the Yamuna River flowing eastward due to tectonic uplift. Here’s the story:

“What are you doing to me, causing me to move eastward when I was flowing westward?” wailed the Yamuna River.

Tectonic Uplift voiced outwardly, “I’m powerless to stop myself.” “I had no intention of preventing you from flowing westward, but something in me caused me to lift higher.” Tectonic Uplift, who sadly expressed concern for the Yamuna River but did not want to be accused.

The Yamuna River says, “But I’m flowing eastward, yet don’t you know this is going to deprive the Harappan cities of water?”

The Tectonic Uplift wailed. “How come you’re holding me responsible for this?” “I told you I couldn’t stop lifting because of this force; you’re always condemning me, and I’m tired of it.” as the Yamuna River continued to flow east.

“I’m sorry,” Yamuna River says. “I didn’t want to criticize you; it’s only that I’m concerned about depriving the Harappan civilizations of water.”

“I care as well,” responds the Tectonic Uplift, “but I can’t help myself.” “Perhaps the people will figure it out, and if they do die physically, they will be reincarnated.”

“Yes, I understand your reasoning,” said the Yamuna River. “All I worry about is their agony, and I don’t want anyone to suffer.”

“I, too, don’t want to see anyone suffer; but there’s something about earth that causes agony,” Tectonic Uplift cries. “Why is this so?”

As a result, the Yamuna river flowed eastward, depriving Harappan cities of water.

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River Sea (me) snapshot a photo from Bharat’s PDF file. You can also see this photo when opening up Bharat’s PDF file. Further down this message,

Jalore flood Noah
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Bharat Jhunjhunwala wrote about the flood in Jalore.

Alice. I read your post on the Flood. I suggest that the Flood took place at Jalore (literally, “city of water”) in Rajasthan.
1 Cattle on boat. The Indus people were seafarers and had connection with Egypt.
2 Ararat. ~ Aravalli mountains?
3 Living traditions
The Meena community claims descent from Vaivaswat Manu at whose time the fish incarnation took place. This narrative is parallel to the Bible.
4. Names. Noah = Manoah = Manu.
5 Burnt offering. Very much an Indian tradtion.
6 Baked Bricks. Tower was made with baked bricks—a sign of Indus Valley.
You may like to see this note that gives many more details. Love this conversation.

Noah’s boat came to rest on Mount Ararat. This is parallel to Vaivaswat Manu’s boat being pulled to the Himalaya Mountain as already detailed in section “The Boat Rested on Ararat, Judi or Himalaya” on Page 81.
The Bible says that Noah’s Ark came to rest on Mount Ararat. This could be the Aravalli Mountains lying 100 kilometres south of Jalore. The names “Ararat” and “Aravalli” have the common letters “a,” “r,” “a” and “a” as we have discussed in the Common Narratives section of this chapter above. The word Ararat means “precipitation of curse” in Hebrew. The word Aravalli too indicates hostility.
Noah’s Hebrew name “Noach” has its origin in the Hebrew word “nuwach,” which means a “resting place.” This may refer to the boat having rested on the Ararat Mountain. The Sanskrit language, however, provides a more direct connection of the name with the Flood. The Sanskrit root “nau” means ship, boat or vessel. This meaning may lie at the root of the names Noah and Nuh, used in the Bible and the Quran for the Prophet given his overpowering association with the boat on which he escaped the Flood.

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You must realize that this exercise is moot if the Noah story was just allegory - a made-up story to project the power and wrath of a Hebrew god.

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Even if it was"made up," the “make up” would be strengthened if we get a physical corroboration of the events–which I find in the Indus Valley.

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This map caught my attention since it shows the whole Harappan region.

Harappa map shows area
Harappa map shows area1684×896 196 KB

I did get this map from https://www.pinterest.com/pin/600808406555714944/

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@Patrick

  • What was the purpose for which people felt the need to project the power and wrath of a Hebrew god - through stories - such as flood the entire planet?

  • I’m not understanding how the flood story progressed from local to global. I am aware of the flooding in Jalore, India.

  • What happened to the Hebrew God and myths as time passed? Were many of these stories exaggerated?

  • God personalizes collective consciousness awareness in Hebrew beliefs, but others, such as the Torath Mosheh people, had not personalized God, or had they?

  • What I don’t understand is the “Brahman Hebrew God’s” wrath: what exactly is it? How can God have emotions? What are emotions? Does emotion follow thoughts? Is climate change emotional? What exactly is climate change? Can weather have emotions? Can land tectonic uplift be caused by emotions triggered by thoughts about the big bang’s aftermath? Has the Big Bang finished or is it still continuing? Because Elohim is the big bang, or what is Elohim?

  • Elohim = the Big Bang Theory. Meaning: Hashem is the source of all reality i.e. the cause of reality. Elohim means “strength” or “power.” Hebrew means dirty and dusty.

  • Yadavas were Hebrews who traveled to Yisrael from the Indus Valley, which may explain why they were called “dusty, dirty; that’s what Hebrew means, dirty, dusty.” Next time you call someone Hebrew, you’re actually calling them dirty and dusty.

  • People are Gods while there’s only one God. People have emotions.

  • What is a God?

  • I believe the flood is limited to Jalore, India, rather than the entire planet. Plus, how could a flood cover the entire planet?

Bowl shape Jalore flood Manu
Bowl shape Jalore flood Manu1393×481 154 KB

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What was the purpose for which people felt the need to project the power and wrath of the Hindu gods - through stories?

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Many (most?) ancient civilisations lived on floodplains (Nile, Tigris–Euphrates, Indus, Ganges, Yangtze, etc). Each floodplain civilisation would generate flood myths, which would often get exaggerated in the retelling. For example the Chinese Great Flood allegedly lasted for two generations.

Evidence for this claim?

Also, according to the OED, the word “Hebrew” originally meant “one from the other side (of the river)”:

[ME. Ebreu, a. OF. Ebreu, Ebrieu (nom. Ebreus, 12th c. in Hatz.-Darm.), ad. med.L. Ebrâ€čehookmacâ€șus for cl.L. HebrĂŠus, a. Gr. ጙÎČÏÎ±áż–ÎżÏ‚, f. Aramaic ﻋebrai, corresp. to Heb. ﻋibrÄ« ‘a Hebrew’, lit. ‘one from the other side (of the river)’; f. ﻋēber the region on the other or opposite side; f. ﻋābar to cross or pass over. Cf. the LXX, Gen. xiv. 13 ገÎČρᜰ” ᜁ πΔρατ᜔ς, ‘Abram the passer-over’ or ‘immigrant’, for Abrām haﻋibrÄ« ‘Abram the Hebrew’.

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To bring knowledge that the Collective Power is much stronger than personal power.

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1 No parting of sea in Egypt. The parting of the Yam Suf matches with the flow of the Indus River being blocked by eruption of a mud volcano upstream of the point of crossing.

2 No location of Second Yam Suf. This matches with Hamun-e-Mashel water body.

3 Sinai under control of Egyptians.

4 No volcano in Sinai. Sinai volcano matches with Taftan.

5 No place named Paran in Sinai. There exists an ancient place name ‘Paran” near Isfahan.

6 No Kings Highway between Egypt and Israel. Kings Highway matches with the Silk Route from Tehran to Baghdad.

7 No Mount Hor in Sinai. Mount Hor matches with Kangavar.

8 No reason why Hebrews would go to Aquaba (where this is supposed to be locaed). Third Yam Suf matches with Shatt al-Arab.

9 No archaeo evidence of outmigration from Egypt or for stay in Sinai.

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None of this is evidence that “Yadavas were Hebrews who traveled to Yisrael from the Indus Valley” (in fact none of these claims even mention the Yadavas at all).

Most of this could simply be evidence that the Exodus did not happen – which seems to be the consensus historical view.

Further, I’m seeing no archeological evidence that the Yadava people even existed as a separate group. Their existence seems to be down to mention in ancient Indian literature. This would make it difficult (impossible?) to identify any later group with them.

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The archaeological evidence would be of habitation, not “Yadavas.” Yet, for a starter, please consider this parallel.
The Bible says that his mother was not able to hide baby Moses from the Mitsrites. She put him in a basket and laid the basket by the bank of the River of Mitsrayim (Exodus 2:3).

Moses’ sister stood watching to see what happened to the basket. The Pharaoh’s daughter recovered the basket. Then Moses’ sister approached the Pharaoh’s daughter and suggested she might get a wet nurse from among the Hebrews to bring up the infant. The Pharaoh’s daughter agreed to the suggestion. Moses’ sister then brought her mother to the Pharaoh’s daughter, who gave infant Moses to his natural mother to wet nurse for her. In this way, Moses’ biological mother brought up her own child by posing as his foster mother (Exodus 2:9).

The Hindu narrative also tells of Krishna’s life being threatened. However, a bit of background is necessary before we give the details of that event.

Vasudeva was the ruler of the Kingdom of Shurasena. He wed Devaki, cousin sister of Kamsa, ruler of Mathura. Kamsa was driving the chariot carrying his newlywed sister to her husband’s home. At this time, a voice from the sky said that the eighth son of Devaki would kill Kamsa. Thereupon Kamsa wanted to kill his sister immediately so that his future enemy would not be born at all. However, Vasudeva persuaded Kamsa to let his cousin sister live since he faced a threat from the eighth son of Devaki, not from Devaki herself. Thereupon, Kamsa imprisoned Vasudeva and Devaki. He killed the first seven sons of Devaki.

Then her eighth son Krishna was born. Vasudeva managed to come out of the prison and carried infant Krishna in a basket placed above his head across the swirling waters of River Yamuna (Bhagwata Purana 10:3:47-50).

Vasudeva placed the newborn Krishna on the bed of Yashoda, the queen of Gokul, and returned with her newborn daughter to Mathura within the night. He entered the prison and pretended that Devaki had given birth to the girl child (Bhagwata Purana 10:3:51-52). Kamsa killed the infant girl and rested in peace thinking he had eliminated the potential cause of his death. In the meanwhile, Nanda and Yashoda brought up Krishna at Gokul as his foster parents (Bhagwata Purana 10:3:48-51).

The common strand in the two narratives is that the Prophet was taken in a basket to a river in order to avoid death; and he was brought up by foster parents in or near the land of his birth. Moses was brought up at Mitsrayim; while Krishna was brought up at Gokul in the land of Mathura.

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So are you claiming that the Yadavas lived without “habitation”? Lacking physical evidence – burial sites, pottery, etc, etc, we have no more evidence for the Yadivas than we have for other entities that are attested to purely literary – e.g. King Arthur. Please provide evidence that the Yadavas were (i) more than an ancient Indian myth & (ii) that we know enough about them to have a reasonable ability to distinguish which later ethnic groups are and are not descended from them. On this point, a reasonable estimate of when the Yadavas lived would be an essential starting point.

Let’s not – one can always find parallels between myths – hence The Hero with a Thousand Faces – this is not evidence of common orgin.

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