Common Ancestor an Unwarranted Assumption?

[Mercer (John Mercer)]

@AllenWitmerMiller

So perhaps he realized that the clams outracing velociraptors wasn’t cutting it anymore.

What about the razor clams?

[T_aquaticus]

@noUCA

When the Divine issues a command, the end and beginning are as one, and occur simultaneously. Only in the natural do we see an unfolding of events over time.

That renders your appeal to a law of parsimony misdirected and irrelevant.

Do you accept any natural explanation for any natural phenomenon? Do you reject the Germ Theory of Disease, and instead conclude that God is actively causing infectious diseases?

[AllenWitmerMiller (Retired Professor & Minister.)]

@Mercer

What about the razor clams?

They are at their best when lightly-breaded and pan-fried. (That’s one of the hazards of being slower than a velociraptor.)

@Timothy_Horton

That’s easily refuted by the fact trilobite fossils are found in thousands of locations and on all 7 continents but never in strata dating older than the end of the Permian 252 MYA. . . . Oh It’s Ken Ham.

Fortunately for Ken Ham, radiometric dating is meaningless. [Sarcasm alert.]

[noUCA]

About your model. You ask:

Why did God create us in a way that it looks like we share common ancestry with the great apes?

Are you asking because you believe we do not share common ancestry with apes, though it appears we do?

[noUCA]

Your answer will be no. Then another question. Of course you already realize that the Man from the Garden in your model is not necessary if one already believes in our present day common descent from apes. Correct?

[noUCA]

Then what would be the motivation for portraying the Man from the Garden at all?

[noUCA]

Then, your model relies on a mixing, an interbreeding to work. The Man from the Garden or his offspring “mixing” with those outside. At what stage of descent do you require the “outside men” to have assumed at the time of mixing?

[noUCA]

Then, you are asking us to believe that the Man from the Garden or his offspring would even be capable of interbreeding and reproducing. This puts a constraint on your model you may not be able to demonstrate. Namely, how will you assure us that this was even possible? Do you know the genetic schematic of the Man from the Garden? How?

[swamidass (S. Joshua Swamidass)]

You are going to like my book @noUCA. I get into all this and more!

[noUCA]

This is your standing challenge to Creationists:

Why did God create us in a way that it looks like we share common ancestry with the great apes?

One should not have to appeal to common ancestry to answer this question. The Scripture may give hints enough.

For instance, this event accompanies the resurrection of the Last Adam, Jesus.

Book of Matthew

51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

This may describe a collateral overflow of supernatural power, something that may have accompanied the injection of Life into both “Adams”, the First and Last.

Just as departed saints were seen alive when the Last Adam came to Life, so the bringing to Life of the First Adam in the Garden may have simultaneously brought genetically similar species into being during a supernatural power overflow.

If an idea like this is able to stand under scrutiny, then from a traditional Christian and Creationist standpoint, all appeals to common ancestry of humans and apes are dead.

One, because this idea immediately demonstrates more explanatory power than common ancestry due to its simplicity. Further, it is credible given, 1. the universally understood omnipotence of God (even by skeptics), 2. the scriptural cohesiveness linking both Adams, and 3. the scripturally-based idea that God holds power in reserve (e.g., Jesus unable to do many miracles in a certain town because of unbelief, Peter’s shadow [in itself, a visible example of power overflow], the woman with the issue of blood and Jesus’ exclamation that power had gone out from him).

[John_Harshman]

@noUCA

Just as departed saints were seen alive when the Last Adam came to Life, so the bringing to Life of the First Adam in the Garden may have simultaneously brought genetically similar species into being during a supernatural power overflow.

I suppose, having dropped the whole template thing, that this is your new theory? Still needs to be fleshed out more. For one thing, it applies only to humans and apes. It doesn’t account for all the other species. For another, it doesn’t account for nested hierarchy within apes or for their relationship to other primates. For a third, it’s just [redacted] crazy.

[Roy (30-year veteran)]

@noUCA

This may describe a collateral overflow of supernatural power, something that may have accompanied the injection of Life into both “Adams”, the First and Last.

Just as departed saints were seen alive when the Last Adam came to Life, so the bringing to Life of the First Adam in the Garden may have simultaneously brought genetically similar species into being during a supernatural power overflow.

If an idea like this is able to stand under scrutiny, then from a traditional Christian and Creationist standpoint, all appeals to common ancestry of humans and apes are dead.

One, because this idea immediately demonstrates more explanatory power than common ancestry due to its simplicity.

You’ll need more than your say-so here. What does this explain that common ancestry doesn’t?

This, like your ‘template’ idea, looks like something you just invented. There’s no reason to take it seriously.

Your follow-up verifies this:

Further, it is credible given, 1. the universally understood omnipotence of God (even by skeptics), 2. the scriptural cohesiveness linking both Adams, and 3. the scripturally-based idea that God holds power in reserve (e.g., Jesus unable to do many miracles in a certain town because of unbelief,

The emphasised sections contradict each other.

[John_Harshman]

@Roy

The emphasised sections contradict each other.

Only if you think that Jesus is God. Maybe he’s an Arian.

[Roy (30-year veteran)]

Nope, if Jesus isn’t God but is acting as a conduit for God’s power or is requesting and getting God’s assistance it’s still a contradiction. It’s only not a contradiction if Jesus not only isn’t God but is also at odds with God.

(that last sentence may be unparseable)

[AllenWitmerMiller (Retired Professor & Minister.)]

@John_Harshman

Poe’s law?

In that spirit, here’s “The Evolution Song.”

Evolution song by Kevin Lee - YouTube.flv

[John_Harshman]

That’s a new one on me. Creepy.

[Timothy_Horton]

@noUCA

Just as departed saints were seen alive when the Last Adam came to Life, so the bringing to Life of the First Adam in the Garden may have simultaneously brought genetically similar species into being during a supernatural power overflow.

“supernatural power overflow”???

Not enough facepalms on the web to cover that one.

[Rumraket (Mikkel R.)]

ROFL. I like the subtle threat of hell in the lyrics.

[Rumraket (Mikkel R.)]

@John_Harshman

That’s a new one on me. Creepy.

Some of the choice of imagery picked to go with the lyrics was rather creepy yes.

[AllenWitmerMiller (Retired Professor & Minister.)]

@Rumraket

I like the subtle threat of hell in the lyrics.

Yes, a little bit of emphasis always helps embed a message in the listener’s brain!