Nor Height Nor Depth: On the Toll Houses

Oh, @Greg ! You might want to read this!

Here is a quote from your article:

Among a great many Orthodox scholars in the academic world (especially when they gather together in hushed colloquy among the shadows and feel at liberty to speak strictly entre eux ) it is often taken as depressing evidence of how radically the public intellectual culture of Orthodoxy in America has degenerated in recent years—how, that is, it has declined from the urbane, scholarly, perhaps slightly Mandarin sophistication of the generation of Alexander Schmemann and John Meyendorff…

I can tell you some incredible unexplainable stories as to why this article does not perfectly reasonate with me. Before i make my argument, i will say that being educated in areas of theology, philosophy, politics and science are very important! I am quite worried where generation X takes this country. Sorry guys. That for another day.

So back to a story…will keep it short. Knew a lady diagnosed w ovarian cancer that was confirmed by one of the premier MDs in the midwest. This person w cancer a Christian. She called the biggest prayer warriors she knew. They prayed for healing. She sensed a healing from cancer. I doubted this. She did not, nor did my wife. She wisely chose to get the hysterectomy and was convinced that no cancer.

I will never forget when we were all in the prep room w this person who was readying to be carted to surgery. The female surgeon i believe first name Marsha came in to find us praying. The lady w cancer diagnosis told her that no cancer as she has been healed by God. I honestly cringed in my doubt (and my theology honestly) to that statement. I will NEVER forget the arrogant smirk and look of dismay of the seeming foolishness towards this Christian person on, we will call Dr. Marsha’s face, when she told this Christian woman that the test was so conclusive that her female organs were consumed w cancer, that she had better at the most just hope it had not spread.

Then to surgery

I will ALSO never forget when Dr. Marsha came back into the room to say the hysterectomy was complete and tests for cancer done…she said organs were pretty rough and good to be removed… but that they could not explain finding not one bit of cancerous cells at that point of testing multiple parts of female organs…i was floored. And Dr. Marsha’s demeanor was quite different at this point. She was quite humbled in contrast to seeing her smirks and sneers before the surgery. I was floored again. (This is 100% true - at least true as i recall the details. But i can find records of cancer diagnosis then records of finding no cancer)

So in my opnion, intelligence may rely on self reliance so much that the person may completely miss wisdom that says the transcendent nature of a real God who is supernatural and actively working in our midst makes the intelligence of man look to be foolish in what is most true of our eternal reality as people made in Gods image. In the realm of possibilities about how we came into existence with a transcendent God in that equation, i dare say we should be very careful about relying on our scientific intelligence in developing and holding too strongly onto those conclusions! Wisdom may also suggest to trust the testimony of the One who was there. This may look foolish to the academy. But is it really?

I will have to tell you a more detailed true story of a lady named Laurie whom i never knew, but a friend of ours knew… In nutshell, she went into a coma upon third trimester of her pregnacy…baby healthy, but she devolved to life support. Drs said her organs shutting down.

I learned of this a knew about a prayer warrior named keith. I shared the request.

I went on w work and kinda forgot about her. Keith emailed me to say he was being awoken in middle of night to pray for Laura. He wanted to know status. I checked. Long story short, near the same day that they were going to pull Laurie off life support and diagnosis of failed organs etc, she awoke from coma!

I PROMISE you this true. That was a decade ago and i have no idea how she is doing today. But i can tell you that Laurie and her entire family got on one of the networks nationwide morning shows. You could prob find it in archives. I think they lived somewhere around Maineville OH.

That prayer warrior who i called has done missions to Africa. They call him ( i would not lie about this) when in drought conditions there in a part of Africa for prayer for rain as they recognize his profound faith in a Great God who transcends nature!

Did your friend, perchance, smoke weed? Quite a cancer killer, as some people claim. I, personally, use it for cancer prevention, among other things.

Anyway, this article is talking about fundamentalism (and toll houses) and how, in first century and earlier, Jews believed in a quite odd (to say the least) cosmology. A cosmology that most literalist today reject. Why do you reject it, considering that the bible says so? Or, do you, perchance, use selective literalism? Enough to reject evolution and old earth but not enough to reject round Earth, the gravity and, well, the fact that Heaven isn’t on some cloud above us, among other things.

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I dont reject an old earth and evolutionism in the sense that i am wanting a literary battle about ideas communicated. I rather reject the theorizing of our existence without reverence due to our Creator God who, if He can create a cosmos, would not even need 6 days to create us. I understand why someone who against any acceptance of belief in our Creator to stand upon a naturalistic outlook of our existence. I dont understand why one who believes in God tending towards materialist bent explanations at all cost. Im sorry, but it takes more of a leap of faith to think that nature can creating eyesight than think it was accomplished by a Creator.

Started rereading a book by Andrew Murray on Humilty. He says,“It is the soul occupied with God in His wonderful glory as Creator and Redeemer that will truly take the lowest place before Him.”

Nine months. You’ve been a member here for nine months. Yet, you’ve learned nothing.

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It is not humility to insist that one’s translation and understanding of Genesis 1 is infallible.


I liked this, today:

It is humility to insist that the most understandable renduring of this scripture that seems to point to a young earth and a Creator of living forms called kinds is quite possible for the God who transcends nature. And He would owe nobody an explanation as to why the science of man seems to interpret the earth as old…the question becomes-who do you trust more?

Or not…

So you can drop that argument.

No Christian is doubting God’s omnipotence, so you can drop that argument, pronto.

And that is a self-righteous attempt at a guilt trip you can lose even faster.

The question really becomes why do you think that God’s vastly huge and vastly old creation is lying? And he holds unbelievers responsible for recognizing his power and eternity.


This refutes the YEC argument about the Kaibab uplift and the Grand Canyon in 11 seconds:


I love this one:

Girdled rocks
New evidence always supports the antiquity of the earth and it continues to build.


This is not humility. You are stating it as such, but you are wrong. Humility is humbleness, especially in not putting your own person or views at the center, and, instead, humbling yourself to the issue at hand.

This is the opposite of humility, because you have clearly and for nine months straight put your own opinion of what this means front and center. You have pridefully (the exact opposite of humbleness) put your own rendering of that which has been clearly explained by dozens of Christians, many of whom once held the same belief that you did. Clearly the most plain rendering of the first couple of chapters of Genesis is that God created the earth in six literal days. There is, however, no connection between holding to a literal understanding of a topic and being humble.


Biblical deceit more resembles looking into the mirror of God’s perfect word and seeing who we are, then going away from that mirror and forgetfully, and deceitfully forgetting what we saw to instead believe a lie. (James 1:22-25)

There is NOTHING in all of scripture or even common sense to suggest that, in light of the glory of a great transcendent God,who may look at the vastness of space and even time as a pindrop, that our universe MUST be ancient because it appears ancient. Jesus made wine that appears to have age by the rational human mind in a matter of seconds. God exists outside of the dimensions which we are grounded within

Im here w my 12yr old son in FL helping my bro on a kitchen remodel and to see my mom for Mothers day as my Dad not well w cancer and want to be an encouragement. One of the other books i have brought w me to continue reading is called “When People are Big and God is small.” So if God seems to say something that runs contrary to the even scientific opinions of man, the title of this book borrowed from dozens of principles from the Book asks a question: “who do you trust more?”

Im sorry, but i will have to humbly disagree. You are exchanging the idea of humbleness w confidence. I have mentioned this many times- Ben Franklins’s pursuit of virtues was successfully accomplished except for the virtue of humility bc when he found success, he immediately became proud of his accomplishment! He went on to say however that the APPEARANCE of humility had benefited him monetarily and as a political figure vastly more than all the other virtues. The Bible calls this false humility,

So confidence in a Great God where one is even confident in even an interpetation of His ways that may run contrary to even a majority of the opinions of man may not make me a lot of money or give me a lot of fame, but i dare say should never be attributed to a form of pride as far as human assessment is concerned anyway.

Im sure that there are many young earth creationists who make the CONCEPT of the earth being young of an almost greater value than that of our real God and Creator. That is definately pride. But for another to evaluate ones heart based on the appearance of such confidence and call it pride, is a form of judgementalism which dwells within the camp of pride in itself.

Who is talking about ‘biblical deceit’? You are deceiving yourself, as had already been demonstrated.

That’s nice sounding, but why shouldn’t it be as ancient as it appears? Because your understanding of “yom” in Genesis 1 is infallible? I don’t think so. Was God short of time that he has to conform creation to your translation? It seems to me that, contrary to YECs frequent accusation, it is you and yours who are calling God the liar in creation.

And your latter paragraph is another attempt at sounding holier-than-thou. You really need to lose your self-righteousness, speaking of being deceived.

That is one of the sillier things I’ve read. How can God hold unbelievers accountable if creation is not as it appears? That is using both common sense and scripture!!

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A confidence in a great God is not the issue. We share that. Nearly everyone with whom you converse shares that.

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Are you not directing your concerns to me? Are you not seeing that i am responding to some who accuse me of pride amidst my confidence that the view i carry is undeniably true? Are you even familiar with some of the scientific based concerns in counting on an earth with an extremely lengthy age? Have you considered the location of the moon and the nature of the sun and all other dynamics of consideration from creationists sources that call into question billions of years associated with the existence of our solar system and universe? Do you not see that i am more eager to follow the good theologian describing Scripture than the science of man describing his opinion?

Hoo boy.

Uh, yeah?

Yes, they are bogus.

No. I see someone who thinks that their interpretation of “yom” in Genesis 1 is infallible. It is not.

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