@AllenWitmerMiller @OneGod
My understanding is that the “Hebrews-Yadavas” came from the Indus Valley and traveled to Canaan. Due to this, Proto-Indo-European communication happened.
Sanskrit eastward Germanic westward. That’s what Proto-Indo-European (Sanskrit and Germanic) is. Am I understanding correctly?
Can you help me with your understanding?
I’ve been quite inactive on Peaceful Science for a while due to some medical complications from COVID (apparently a rare type of long-COVID syndrome.) So I’m not keeping up here and that is unlikely to change until I get past some surgeries. My participation on PS will continue to be sporadic
I vaguely recall that that idea has floated around in some circles but I’m not a fan. I’m retired and definitely not keeping up with such things but it is my understanding is that “Kurgan Hypothesis” is still the leading explanation for PIE among scholars. I would recommend that you read the Wikipedia article on Proto-Indo-European for a good grounding in the topic.
IMHO that is way too simplistic. There are MANY more branches. For a good overview, Wikipedia does a reasonable job with “Indo-European Languages.” I think you will find it an interesting read.
I’ve never found the claims about Hebrew connections to a Hindu caste at all convincing. But again, I’m far from current about such things.
Thank you for responding.
I’m sad that you’re going through physical medical complications.
I’ll look up the Kurgan Hypothesis that you shared.
Just for me as I’m slow at this.
Pie diverged from the Caucasus c. 1500 bce
I need to lookup Caucasus
1500bce was before Moses was born in Indus Valley. Moses was born 1525 BC., So that means Pie was developed before Moses was born, how is that? @OneGod
I yet need to further look up Kurgan Hypothesis. Kurgan uses the steppe theory
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Kurgan_map.png#/media/File:Kurgan_map.png
From the Kurgan Hypothesis pie: map looks different from Indus Valley Hypothesis pie.
Question: During the time of Proto-Indo-European, were they using the solar calendar or the lunar calendar?
From Wikipedia Proto-Indo-European language article:
PIE is hypothesized to have been spoken as a single language from 4500 BC to 2500 BC[3] during the Late Neolithic to Early Bronze Age, though estimates vary by more than a thousand years. According to the prevailing Kurgan hypothesis, the original homeland of the Proto-Indo-Europeans may have been in the Pontic–Caspian steppe of eastern Europe. The linguistic reconstruction of PIE has provided insight into the pastoral culture and patriarchal religion of its speakers.[4]
So no Cascasus and no c. 1500 bce (at least in the mainstream view). (It would be helpful if you stated where you got such claims from.)
Addendum: could it be that you’re talking about the Proto-Indo-Aryan language, which apparently was supplanted by Old Indo-Aryan c1500 BCE?
The “Indus Valley Hypothesis pie” seems to be a minority view. The mainstream view is that Indo-European migrations caused PIE to split into the Indo-European languages, one sub-group being the Proto-Indo-Iranian language, which eventually in turn split leading to (among others) the Indo-Aryan languages, which entered the Indian Subcontinent.
Addendum: the “Indus Valley Hypothesis pie” appears to be part of the belief in Indigenous Aryanism (or Indigenous Aryans theory/IAT), whose level of acceptance Wikipedia describes as:
Support for the IAT mostly exists among a subset of Indian scholars of Hindu religion and the history and archaeology of India,[10][11][12][13][5] and plays a significant role in Hindutva politics.[14][15][3][web 1][web 2] It has no relevance, let alone support, in mainstream scholarship.[note 2]
Given that this period was before the development of writing, it is likely that we’ll never know.
Moses was born in 1525 BC. What language did Moses speak? Also, Moses was afraid to speak; how come?
Ok, I’m going to look up the word Caucasus now.
Sadly to explain, I can’t find this word Caucasus in the book Common Prophet.
From Bing search engine the word Caucasus appears.
Without opening up a website and over to the right I see
Countries Armenia · Azerbaijan · Georgia · Russia
Demonym Caucasian
Question: How come there’s the letter U next to the letter A in the word Caucasus? How did that happen from pie? Why not only use letters that have sounds? The letter A vs. added features to the letter A: how come? How did pie cause that?
Do Countries Armenia · Azerbaijan · Georgia · Russia uses AU?
Is this from pie?
Showing reference as you asked: This whole adventure with the letter H, came from my interaction from a Torath Mosheh from Israel. His online name is Ehav4Ever and extremely earlier with Bharat Jhunjhunwala. This is a journey for me. Now I’m learning about pie at my pace. How involve is the letter H with Pie?
I was interacting for a while with a Torath Mosheh from Israel. He claims Ivrith for Hebrew. From him I learn Hebrew means dirty dusty. Reasons why he created word Ivrith. He explain there why.
Referencing show you
Interaction and I learn the Hebrew letter H
Ehav4Ever wrote
Modern Hebrew is derived from ancient Hebrew. In ancient Hebrew two distinct scripts were used for different types of texts.
The following video may help about the two scripts that were used in ancient Israeli/Jewish writings.
Ehav4Ever wrote
Paleo-Hebrew, as a script, was used for certain types of documents in Ancient Israel but it was not the only script used. In fact, if you look through History you will see that different fragments of texts found from about 3,000 years have different methods of writing the letter you are referencing. My above videos discuss this.
Basically it went on and on, as I learn those scrolls aren’t old but with modern letters, as I realized this when I learn the Hebrew letter H
Ok that’s my attempt referencing.
Basically this whole learning is a journey
You asked for reference, I show you.,
so basically I’m proud of myself when seeing these scrolls, I learn it’s with modern Hebrew letters.
is this also of pie?
As Moses would not have spoken PIE, this has nothing to do with the origin of PIE. But it would be again useful if you could state where this new claim came from.
Assuming Moses even existed (which is highly doubtful), most probably Hebrew, or some antecedent of that language. Regardless, it would have been an Afroasiatic language, unrelated to PIE.
Caucasus ultimately means the Caucasus Mountains, which stretch between the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea.
… from Latin Caucasus, from Greek kaukasis, said by Pliny (“Natural History,” book six, chap. XVII) to be from a Scythian word similar to kroy-khasis, literally “(the mountain) ice-shining, white with snow.” But possibly from a Pelasgian root *kau- meaning “mountain.”[1]
Pie
People can talk. Some people can’t talk. Some people will talk later in life. What is talk?
People can write. Some people can’t write. Some people will write later in life. What is write?
As I learn online about Moses, who was afraid to talk, he was so afraid that he expressed his fears to YHWH that YHWH actually used Aaron to ease Moses fears. This happened before pie.
How come YHWH uses Moses to lead many away from conflict, and this causes “pie” later?
When did pie happen—when people went different ways, or would pie still happen if everyone remained together?
Bharat Jhunjhunwala taught me about the Indus Valley because he discovered four rivers flowing in four directions while visiting the city of Pushkar in Rajasthan in the 1980s.
Bharat wondered whether the four rivers of Pushkar, were the four rivers of the Garden of Eden, or Paradise.
Year 2022: I learned this from Bharat and wrote about it, yet the whole time people were upset. Why? Yet the Hebrews left the Indus Valley and eventually caused Pie, while the Indus Valley is forgotten. How come?
Even though I shared about the letter H in Hebrew, is that because before pie I asked? Was this known as the letter H before pie, as then, due to pie, in other languages it was still called that (this letter H, whose whereabouts are unknown), and what happened as pie developed many types of Abrahamic religions—did pie cause that? Remember the letter H. from Abram to Abraham? Remember now that there are 3 Abrahamic religions because of pie?
Letter H before Pie is extremely spiritual and physical. This is forgotten during pie how come?
Also, conflicts between Jews, Christians, Muslims, and Hindus have troubled Bharat for a long time.
Bharat cares and shares, yet many only show their fears and are upset. How come?
Bharat wanted to unravel this mystery. This led him to study the
scriptures of Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and Hinduism—Bharat studies all of them.
So did pie solve these issues, or did pie cause more conflict?
There was conflict when Moses couldn’t resolve conflict with Pharaoh; how come later this conflict wasn’t resolved when the Hebrews took over the Canaanites? What if the Canaanites are people we need, but their voice is taken away? What about the pie language of the Canaanites? What if all we know of the Canaanites is rumor and lies? Who are the Canaanites, and do we love them? What is love? What is pie? Does pie express love or only hate?
Who loves the Canaanites? Did Jesus save the Canaanites? Are the Canaanites included in Easter now “spiritually alive”?
If the above dates are correct, it happened about 1000 years after PIE. So everything else you’ve written is wrong.
@riversea: I find your style of writing to be very unconnected and incoherent, which makes it very difficult to follow your line of thought.
You also make a very large number of assumptions and claims that (i) you don’t give a source for, and (ii) are in conflict with mainstream scholarship.
As @Roy points out, the claim that “this happened before pie” is in conflict with what we know about PIE. PIE existed thousands of years before the time when the Exodus is set.
No they did not. The Hebrews neither spoke PIE nor any other Indo-European language. The spoke an unrelated language, Hebrew, that comes from an unrelated language family, Afroasiatic.
PIE existed thousands of years before any written script, so any written letters cannot have been “before PIE”.
Bharat shares many things that he wants to be true – but very little in the way of convincing evidence that they are true. This leads many to regard him with a very high level of skepticism.
All the evidence we have to date is that Proto-Indo-European had nothing to do with the ancient Hebrews, and that the ancient Hebrews had nothing to do with the Indus Valley.
Unless and until we get convincing evidence making either of these connections, any discussion that assumes these connections is going to be very confused and unproductive.
This is for me. My slowness to understand perspectives.
Two events took place at 1500 BCE.
The PIE moved from Caucasus to Indus Valley. I coalesced with Indus Script and Sanskrit was born.
Hebrews carried the Indus Script to Canaan, Yisrael, Israel. Similar to English coming to India and Indians migrating to the US at the same time.
I still want to explore the Caucasus Mountains on YouTube and get other people’s personal experiences.
I’m looking forward to this.
I love YouTube in this way because it allows me to journey through their personal experiences.
According to mainstream scholarship, neither of these events took place.
The Proto-Indo-European language no longer existed in 1500 BCE, it had long since split and evolved into other languages. 1500 BCE is about the time that one of its descendants, the Proto-Indo-Aryan language, evolved into Old Indo-Aryan in that region.
The Hebrews neither came from that Indus Valley, nor carried the Indus Script with them. The first part of that can be seen from the fact that, both genetically and linguistically, the Hebrews were local to the Levant. The second can be seen from the fact that, although the Indus Script (which had a very large number of symbols) shares a few simple symbols in common with the earlier scripts the Hebrews would have used, the scripts were structured very differently – the Hebrew scripts were consonantal, the Indus Script was syllabic.
I’m assuming you are getting these claim from Bharat. As I said before:
I can see why Bharat would want these claims to be true – as he wants Indian and Judaic religions to share a common root. He has however provided no solid evidence that they are true.
This is for me and my slow pace. Studying reading and typing.
I’m studying. I’m reading books, including the Common Prophet Book. I’m also reading Five Views on the Exodus by Mark Janzen. When I read books, I live in my mind. So I read extremely slowly.
These five views of Exodus aren’t mainstream. It’s me, River, who’s studying and learning other views.
However, this thread is about Proto-Indo-European, so what happened after the Exodus? When did Proto-Indo-European begin, and I wonder what these five authors’ views are on Proto-Indo-European? I just thought of that. What are their views?
From the book "Five Views on the Exodus, I have the Kindle version…
I’m at my calculator right now.
In 1525 BC, Moses was born.
1500 BC: Moses would be 25 years old.
So did writing 1500 B.C. cause confusion about Proto-Indo-European? What about E.? When adding an E after BC, does that help? Example: 1500 BCE might mean it covers 1600 BC and 1400 BC as well. Maybe E is more approximate and BC is more detailed? I’ll put that on my list to learn: what does E do to BC? However, did I add E.? I need to go back and find out. Lots of yikes moments here. But keep in mind that the earth has continued through this, so this isn’t a crisis, ok? I hope you’re able to handle your emotions whomever is reading this.
This is something I will explore, ok? I will at times make errors, and I’ll take a closer look at my errors.
1445 BC: Moses, 80 years old, left the Indus Valley.
1405 BC Moses is 120 years old. Moses died. Moses didn’t make it to Canaan.
So what year did Proto-Indo-European happen, and does 1500 BC cause confusion? I’m thinking it does. So I want to know what language is used when typing 1500 BC when addressing a situation in 1445 BC, 1405 BC. and (later which is lesser numbers) What calendar? It reaches zero then gets greater. How come?
This was from my studying earlier as I was learning about calendars; however, what calendar are we using when studying 1445 BC onward? I think it’s the Luni-Solar calendar. This is so confusing. There is a lot for me to learn.
I might have made a lot of errors here as I learn and study from the book of Common Prophets.
Also, understanding the mainstream version will take some time.
My beginning with this is to look up on YouTube the Caucasian mountains and watch people’s personal experiences.
This will allow me to observe Caucasian mountains, I need this so I can relate within my imagination.
Given that (i) Proto-Indo-European had ceased to exist thousands of years before the events portrayed in the Exodus story, and (ii) the Hebrews spoke a language unrelated to Proto-Indo-European, I would suggest that discussion of the Exodus is off-topic for this thread.
If you want to discuss Proto-Indo-European, you are welcome to do so. But you have not been doing this to date. All you have been doing is taking PIE as a stepping-off point to discuss unrelated topics – without discussing Proto-Indo-European at all.
Proto-Indo-European is unrelated to the Hebrews, the Exodus and Moses – so any discussion of those three things is not a discussion about Proto-Indo-European!
If you want to discuss those three topics, I suggest you (i) start a new thread, but (ii) leave Proto-Indo-European out of that new thread.
It might help if you read the Wikipedia article on Proto-Indo-European language again, and before you post anything further on this thread, first ask yourself “is what I’m writing about directly related to things discussed in that article?”
I have read neither of the two books you mention.
Common Prophet was written by Bharat, who has no expertise in either History or Linguistics – so is an unreliable source.
Five Views is published by Evangelical Christian publisher Zondervan, so is unlikely to be a representative sample of views of the Exodus – as Evangelicals tend to view the Bible as Inerrant.
I would note that none of those five views would be in any way compatible with Bharat’s views – so it would be wrong to take their dates of the Exodus and try to plug them into Bharat’s ‘Israelities-from-the-Indus’ hypothesis.
I am surprised however that Feinman attempts to place the Exodus during the rule of Ramesses II – as he is famous for his campaigns in Syria against the Hittites – and appears to have had hegemony over Canaan and the Sinai for most of his rule. There would be little point in escaping Egypt, only to first wander through one piece of Egyptian-controlled territory, and then settle down in another, particularly at the time that Egyptian armies would have been regularly passing through those territories for the Syrian campaigns.