The Bakhos Theory of Dark Energy and Matter

In classical theory the causes of forces are not explained - they are assumed to just be there. It is only in modern quantum field theory that it is posited that forces are mediated by certain carrier particles such as photons. I’m still not sure what your thought experiment accomplishes.

Maybe I don’t fully understand what you’re saying, but this wouldn’t be anything new. You could certainly think of a field as merely a mathematical tool to model the effects of forces between particles and that would be empirically equivalent to the way any other physicist understands fields. Unless if there are any different empirical consequences you imagine to be true of your theory.

You cannot simply assert this. First, you have to specify how this sub-structure exists. What are the forces bounding the electron, sub-neutron, and positron such that they can exist in a bound state? Is it existing forces, or some exotic forces? For example, we think that protons are made of quarks, which are bound together via the strong force.

Second, you have to harmonize this with what we currently know about neutrons. For example (this is only a crude estimation), if a neutron actually consists of a neutral particle called a sub-neutron, and electron and positron, this would result in it looking a lot like a triatomic molecule. I would imagine that the + and - charges of the electron and positron would result in it having a HUGE neutron electric dipole moment (EDM). (Similar to how the composite structure of a water molecule allows it to have a large permanent EDM.) I cannot calculate exactly how huge, because you have not exactly specified how the sub-neutron, positron, and electron bound to each other. Yet, people have been searching for neutron EDMs for years without success. So, this is evidence that your theory is likely not true.

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Your comments about the dipole are very good. For now, I cannot think of any response, so let us say that this is fatal and my antimatter idea is disproven.

About way forces are formulated: One empirical result is the reversal that I am talking about. For two galaxies for example, if the gravitational force is emanating or caused by the matter itself, and is constant, then it would not reverse. If gravitational force is caused by space acting upon matter based upon the location of the two objects, then reversal seems like a more plausible possibility.

Also, leaving aside the empirical and just using imagination – you are missing the point of my thought experiment: It seems more fitting that the source of a near infinite force resides in the entirety of space itself rather than an infinitesimal particle – even though the calculations, in nearly all circumstances, work out the same.

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Good. I hope that this becomes an impetus for you to learn more about antimatter, quantum mechanics, and especially electric dipole moments - which is one of my favorite topics, since I work in this field - I am working on an experiment to measure the EDM of an electron.

I am not sure what you mean by “being caused by space” vs. “being caused by matter itself.” In GR, gravity is explained as being the result of the deformation of spacetime. So in a way, gravity is already “caused by space”, unlike in the naive Newtonian picture.

Why do you think it is more “fitting”? In physics, there are aesthetic arguments, but they are usually expressed in numbers. If the calculations are exactly the same, and the two theories predict exactly the same thing, then we have no reason to favor a new theory over an old theory.

Additionally, in your thought experiment, you are somehow able to apply an infinite force to an electron. You do not specify how this force is produced. So how can we say that it is more realistic that the infinite force is caused by a particle vs. space itself? The whole situation seems absurd to me.

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Under current theory, mass warps space, and this curvature causes acceleration – so, at root, mass is causing acceleration.

“fitting” is in the eye of the beholder. I say it is more fitting because something as tiny as an electron seems an unlikely source for a near infinite force, while saying that all of space is the source seems more likely – purely in an imaginary sense. As far as the calculations – I have already answered that. Why do you ask again? Gravity reversal would be an example where the calculations are different.

As far as your last paragraph: This entire thing is the rudimentary beginnings of a hypothesis. I do not have all the answers. I have put it forward for discussion – current theory, as you know, has been worked out over centuries by thousands of the most brilliant minds in history.

In our interaction in this forum, I am just hoping for a discussion wherein others will temporarily suspend disbelief for bit, conditionally, to explore and think about what I am saying. Criticism is welcome in the sense of pointing out problems that the idea must deal with to be worth moving forward.

Your dipole comment was a good example of this.

But I don’t claim to have all the answers. I have not thought out all the ramifications of my idea. That is one of the reasons why I am having this discussion.

Which is again why I am asking you: why would you rather talk to people about your new theory when you don’t yet know existing theories? This is like trying to run when you have not even learned to walk. You said that you stumbled on this theory by accident. Fine. But that should be an impetus to learn more about the field in a rigorous way such that you are able to develop your theory in a more mature and serious manner.

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Why are you talking to me? Why bother? If you want to talk about my theory, then fine … let’s talk about it. If you do not want to talk about it, will you please go find some better use for your time?

@dga471 critique is a valid one. You can’t make new theories when you don’t even know the existing theories that might falsify it.

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You’re not answering my question, Joe. I’m not trying to imply that I don’t want to talk to you. Clearly, I’ve already spent some amount of time talking to you for some reason. Instead, I am just intrigued by your psychology and thought process.

To elaborate: it is not uncommon for people to have theoretical speculations like yours. Both professional and non-professional physicists may speculate about outlandish ideas they came across by accident, in fields that they do not have expertise in. The difference is that most of the time, this becomes an impetus for them to start learning the stuff that other experts have already thought of in the field. Then often they realize there is a lot they need to learn themselves before they can advocate for their original theory. If they really care about their theory and want to get down to the truth of the matter, they need to acquire the relevant expertise themselves. So I am asking why you are not interested in doing this.

In your case, your theory is a geometrical modification of gravity that can explain dark matter. As has been pointed out before, this is not novel:

  • Modified Newtonian Dynamics (MOND) was already proposed in 1982. It is similar to your theory in that it, too, changes the fundamental equations of gravity in a heuristic way to explain dark matter. Even though it is still not mainstream, MOND has been worked on by respectable physicists such as Bekenstein.
  • Physicists such as Kostelecky explore the consequences of Local Lorentz Invariance (LLI) violation. It seems to me that your theory, where the strength of a force depends on its angle from some arbitrary chosen point C, would also result in the violation of the isotropy of space or LLI.

What I don’t understand is that why is that upon hearing that other people more qualified than you have thought of similar ideas, your reflex wouldn’t be to go out and study those ideas first? Perhaps you will then discover that your idea is a particular variation of MOND, for example. You would then have access to tools developed by a lot of smart people to be used for your theory. You would also be able to express your idea(s) in the language of the field, such that it is MORE likely to get a fair consideration. This is what a normal physicist would do. This is the most likely way that you can make a real contribution to science. So I am asking, why are you seemingly not interested in doing this? What is your motivation to continue focusing on your own theory instead?

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Please look at the title of this thread. I am not in the least bit interested in discussing my motivations with you, or discussing my qualifications with you. If that is what you want to discuss, please find someone else.

@pevaquark Thus far, this is the most intriguing observation in this thread. Your statement:

“This may be an amateur question, as my area is Biophysics and not Cosmology, but what do you have to say about the Andromeda Galaxy which is at 2.5 million light years away and is moving towards us at about 70 miles per second? If gravity is repulsive beyond 1.5 million light years then how should we think about our closest major neighbor galaxy moving toward us? You may have addressed this somewhere but I don’t have time at the moment to go through your thoughtful post on reddit.”

As I pointed out, the velocity is not the issue, because our two galaxies would have an “initial” velocity towards each other. The question is the acceleration; how is this velocity changing over time? So I would like to know if a qualified astrophysicist might answer the following questions:

  1. Is our measuring apparatus sensitive enough to accurately measure Andromeda’s acceleration towards us? I do NOT mean calculations of this acceleration according to the assumptions of current theory. I mean, are we able to actually measure it based upon observation, or not?

  2. Has this been done already?

  3. Do / will the observations match up exactly with current theory?

I am predicting that Andromeda is either slowing down, or else that its acceleration is much less than current theory would predict.

If its acceleration exactly matches up with what current theory would predict, then my theory would be falsified.

I am familiar with MOND; I have tried to convince Dr. Milgrom, a prominent MOND theorist, to take a look at my idea – but he has said he has not the time to give me feedback. You are correct that my idea is a type of modified gravity approach. So far as I know, it is a type that has not been tried yet. Farnes’ work is, thus far, the nearest thing to it – though as has been pointed out, it is still very different.

This statement of yours is very relevant:

Physicists such as Kostelecky explore the consequences of Local Lorentz Invariance (LLI) violation. It seems to me that your theory, where the strength of a force depends on its angle from some arbitrary chosen point C, would also result in the violation of the isotropy of space or LLI.

The qualities of the arbitrary point “C” that I depict are very weird and counter-intuitive. I am saying that it seems to me that gravity is behaving in this manner – but I do not claim to understand why – other than to posit based on my geometry, that forces are also dependent upon this angle, rather than exclusively upon distance.

About isotropy – I am not sure that this would violate it, because I’m assuming that any point in space can serve as this arbitrary hinge point, depending upon the location of objects.

@Joe_Bakhos, I will take one more chance with you. My email inbox is bombarded by ~100 emails per year by people who are extremely sure that they can solve the dark matter and dark energy problems. Unlike most physicists, I try to actually respond to some of them. Most of these theories are completely bunk, and the email exchanges often end with them attacking my professional competence and honesty. So far, you are the only one to ever apologize.

Now, there are many ways to test whether a modified gravity theory can produce a flat rotation curve. Most of these involve numerical integration of many orbits. These tools exist and I can point them out to you, but they are computationally very expensive to run, and many of them you outright cannot use because you only have an approximate force law that is only valid for point particles.

No worries; let’s start with a way more elementary test: circular motion at the outskirts of galaxies. This test is not at all conclusive, but if your theory cannot pass this very rudimentary test, then you have a problem. The idea is very simple, and only require high-school level math and physics.

This is a test of whether your theory has a hope of producing a flat rotation curve for stars/clumps of gas orbiting at the outskirt of galaxies. Most of the light we see in a galaxy is concentrated near the center of the galaxy. Therefore, far in the outskirt, the gravitational acceleration on an orbiting star due to the luminous part of the galaxy can be well approximated by a point source. This is very useful, as you only have the equation

F = -k \frac{M_1 M_2}{r^2} \cos\Theta

which is only valid for a point source.

The idea is the following:

  1. For stars and clumps of gas orbiting in a somewhat circular orbit, they experience two types of accelerations: centripetal and gravity. As these stars are not being flung inwards/outwards from the galaxy, these two accelerations balance each other in the radial direction:
a_{\rm centripetal} = \vec{a}_{\rm gravity} \cdot \hat{r}
  1. The centripetal acceleration is simply (where V is the orbital tangential velocity and R the orbital radius):
a_{\rm centripetal} = \frac{V^2}{R}
  1. As you can see, by substituting a_{\rm centripetal} to the equation in point 1), you can solve for V(R), the orbital tangential velocity as a function of the orbital radius. If the rotation curve is flat, then V would be constant with respect to R:
V(R) = \rm{constant}
  1. If your theory can produce V(R)=\rm{constant} for this very stripped-down system, then you are in business. Otherwise this is a problem and you have to come up with explanations why your theory is still valid.

Let me do a couple of examples for you. Let’s take the Galaxy M87, upon which astronomical observations have shown that regions beyond 20 kiloparsec possess a flat rotation curve.

For Newtonian gravity without dark matter, the acceleration experienced by the star in the radial direction is well approximated by

\vec{a}_{\rm gravity} \cdot \hat{r} = \frac{G M }{R^2}

where M is the mass of the galaxy. Plugging in this equation to the equation in point 1),

\frac{V^2}{R} = \frac{GM}{R^2}

Clearly then,

V(R) \propto \frac{1}{\sqrt{R}}

This is a Keplerian rotation curve, not a flat rotation curve, which again, is V(R) = \rm{constant}. Thus, Newtonian gravity without dark matter fails this test.

Another example: MOND, where for M87 at distances beyond 20 kiloparsec, gives an acceleration experienced by the star in the radial direction to be

\vec{a}_{\rm gravity} \cdot \hat{r} = \sqrt{\frac{GM}{R^2}a_0}

where a_0 is some constant. Plugging in this equation to the equation in point 1),

\frac{V^2}{R} = \sqrt{\frac{GM}{R^2}a_0}

Clearly then,

V(R) = (a_0 G M)^{1/4} = \rm{constant}

thus MOND passes this test: it can produce a flat rotation curve in this simplified calculation.

Now is your turn: plug in your equation for M87 at a distance of 20 kpc and beyond, and show that it can also give a flat rotation curve: V(R)=\rm{constant}. If it passed this test, then we can proceed to building more complicated models.

Don’t hesitate to ask me questions, but again, I am taking one last chance with you. If you attack my professional competence and honesty again, I will cease communication with you.

Edit: An additional caveat, @Joe_Bakhos, note that you do not need to produce V(R)=\rm{constant} exactly, but just to the extend of the error bars of astronomical measurements.

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Thank you for your patience in doing this math for me, but I must ask a few questions about the stripped down system you are describing: I am positing that each galaxy or small galaxy cluster is surrounded by a womb of gas, dust, and other nearby galaxies.

This womb is pressing upon the galaxy with a repulsive gravitational force, and I am positing that it is this repulsive gravitational force ALONG WITH the attractive gravitational force, that is keeping outer stars in the flat rotation curve.

Now the computational difficulty is greatly exacerbated because to model all of this we would need to include all of the current velocities of nearby objects: i.e. the position and velocities of the constituents of the “womb.”

The easiest most straightforward model would be a theoretical galaxy situated at rest with an ellipsoid “womb” surrounding it, providing a repulsive force directed inward at the galaxy, helping to hold the outer stars in place.

Even this would be a rather large over-simplification, because in real life this ellipsoid womb would be steadily expanding; i.e. if all galaxies were theoretically at rest like this, they would begin moving away from each other and their respective wombs would be expanding …

BUT I think that my idea would have to pass this greatly simplified model before we could go on to more complex things.

Again, I am very thankful for your work so far, but would it be possible for you to include the womb? Without it, I guarantee my model would fail, because the cosine theta term would make gravity weaker when it actually needs to be stronger.

I full understand this. Which is why I never state that

\vec{a}_{\rm{gravity}} \cdot \hat{r}

is just the gravity by the galaxy, but rather the sum of all the forces in the radial direction. This includes your womb. All you need to do is add the gravitational forces exerted on the star by your womb to the gravitational acceleration exerted by the core of the galaxy.

Make a simple model, say an ellipsoid womb, or an even simpler one to start: a spherical womb, and integrate over all the forces.

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Thank you. I will look at all this carefully and I will respond once I have worked with it. It will probably take me longer than you think. :slight_smile:

No worries, take your time. Also, in case you did not read an edit I made shortly after posting, I am copy pasting it here:

Do you have any idea as to how to choose the point C for a given set of objects? In other words, given that you have

F = -k \frac{M_1 M_2}{r^2} \cos{\Theta},

we have the angle \Theta, which according to you is a function of L, the distance from C to the midpoint of r, the line connecting M_1 and M_2. The length L will determine where point C is, and thus \Theta. How do we find L for a given set of objects M_1 and M_2 with a given distance from each other?

Reading your Reddit post, you do not seem to specify this. I have no idea what is the function \Theta (L,r,...). Instead, here you say that it is “arbitrary”. Perhaps I’m misunderstanding you? Because without specifying how to find \Theta, then your new expression for F is incomplete. This is very serious. I might as well say that, for example,
\Theta = \pi/2
and thus we would recover the traditional form of Newton’s Law. On the other extreme, because \Theta(L, r, ...) can be any function, there is most likely some function out there that can make it fit any galaxy rotation curve you give it. There might possibly be some complicated version of \Theta(L, r, ...) which will reduce to MOND, for example.

This is a very serious problem if this were true, because it would not be the case that your theory is wrong - your theory wouldn’t even be a new theory; it would only be a different way to mathematically express Newton’s law. It is meaningless to simply say that “the force now depends on angle instead of just distance”. The question is how do you determine the angle?

Again, maybe I’m misunderstanding what your theory is saying. Please correct me if I’m wrong.

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@dga471 I am embarrassed. You are the first person among thousands of viewers that has asked me a question that caused me to look closely at some of my math. I made some very elementary errors. So I need to make some corrections, but I can answer your questions.

First, L is a constant. It does not vary. In my reddit article I declared it to be the diameter of the largest known galaxy; this is wrong. It is the radius of the largest known galaxy. First elementary mistake. It is 1.5 million light years, or 1.419 X 10^22 meters, or 4.6 X 10^5 parsecs. I figured that this distance would be a good first guess at the distance where gravity reverses. Note that at this distance gravity would be zero.

Now to find the arbitrary point C: Draw a line connecting the two galaxies. Find the midpoint. Travel out from this midpoint along a line perpendicular to the first line. The distance you travel is L. You have now arrived at point C. If you stand at point C with one arm pointing at each of the two galaxies, the angle between your arms is the angle theta.

Now to talk about my embarrassing mistake regarding theta. r is the distance between the two galaxies. I said that

\tan \theta = r/L

That is actually a mistake. It is an elementary trigonometry mistake. What I should have said is that

\tan(\theta/2) = r/(2L).

Taking inverse tangent of both sides gives us

\theta = 2 \arctan[r/(2L)]

Now I played with the constant out front, the 1.407 X 10^-17, so as to try to make my gravitational law come out so acceleration is 9.81 m/s^2 near the surface of the earth. Hopefully I did not make any elementary errors there.

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@dga471 and @PdotdQ are the real deal, two Harvard trained physicists. They are taking you seriously. They are not dismissing you as a crack pot. If they have an objection, it is very likely legitimate. Note, also, they are consulting you free of charge. That is what we are about at Peaceful Science. @Joe_Bakhos, you are getting credit too for admitting mistakes and apologizing.

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Thank you for your clarification that L is a constant. I understand better what you are claiming now. So we have

F = \frac{k m M}{r^2} \cos( 2 \arctan[r/(2L)])

Using WolframAlpha (or basic trigonometry), we can transform this into the equivalent formula

F = \frac{k m M}{r^2} \left(\frac{4-x}{x^2+4}\right)

where x = r/L.

I think this form of your equation is mathematically more elegant, rather than talking about “dependence on angle instead of distance”, which to me is a distraction and red herring. The important point here is that your theory modifies gravity by introducing a fundamental length scale L to the universe. Note that we can generalize your formula:

F = \frac{k m M}{r^2 \mu(r/L)}

where \mu(r/L) is some “interpolating function”. Your particular version of \mu(r/L) = \frac{x^2+4}{4-x} is just one of many possibilities. Relating it more clearly to the usual, Newtonian gravitational acceleration:

F_{Newton} = \mu(r/L) F

The reason I’m casting it to this form is to compare this more directly to MOND. In one interpretation of MOND, gravity is modified by introducing an interpolating function \mu(a/a_0), which depends on the acceleration:

F_{Newton} = \mu(a/a_0) F_{MOND}

So basically your theory is very similar to MOND, only that it depends on length instead of acceleration. I thought this is an interesting connection. Of course, the question is now: can you get as good of a fit to galaxy rotation curves using \mu(r/L) as you can using \mu(a/a_0) (as in the case of MOND)?

Note that in the case of MOND, the “standard” choice for \mu(a/a_0) = \sqrt{\frac{1}{1+(a_0/a)^2}} in the low acceleration regime, a << a_0, simplifies to

F_{MOND} = m \frac{a^2}{a_0}

As alluded to by @PdotdQ, this is very convenient, as it allows you to get rid of the equation’s dependence on r which gives you flat rotation curves:
\implies \frac{k M m }{r^2} = m\frac{(v^2/r)^2}{a_0}.
\implies k M a_0 =v^4
Thus, the choice of using \mu(a/a_0) with the standard interpolation function seems to be the most obvious and elegant choice for modifying Newtonian dynamics for this purpose. In your theory, you cannot accomplish this (i.e. getting rid of r) as easily. Because you chose L to be of comparable scale to r for stars orbiting at the edges of the galaxy, we cannot simplify the equation further. As you said, some objects are repulsive (i.e. the “womb”) and some are attractive, so it will be complicated situation. We probably have to resort directly to numerical simulation. Perhaps with with a very clever choice of \mu(r/L) and a very odd-shaped womb, you can get similar results (at least in a superficial sense) as \mu(a/a_0).

So, in conclusion, while I am not super optimistic about your theory, given how inelegant it is relative to MOND, at least I am happy that I have clarified for myself what you are proposing. It might still be a useful exercise for you to try to simulate or calculate an actual model implemented with your theory.

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