Universal Common Designer theory [UPDATED and REVISED]

No @Meerkat_SK5, here is where your credulity is showing. Criticism such as Beall’s is a threat to AME’s business model. So it is entirely to be expected that they will make some effort to rebut that criticism whether that criticism is justified or not. This rebuttal is entirely self-serving, and so is of little probative value.

I already told you this:

I would note that their willingness to publish an article so far outside the journal’s stated topic is, in and of itself, likely evidence of a predatory journal.

I take it English is not your first language?

Your quote does not say “Indeed, Orch OR does also help explain other mysteries including how anesthesia works, the origin and evolution of life, free will, the flow of time, memory, dreams, and how general relativity relates to quantum mechanics.”

It says “may”, which means that it also may not “also help explain …”.

The employment of “may” in English denotes the subjunctive mood, “[d]esignating a mood … the forms of which are employed to denote an action or a state as conceived (and not as a fact) and therefore used to express a wish, command, exhortation, or a contingent, hypothetical, or prospective event.”

This means that the “link” in the article is purely speculative and thus of zero evidentiary value.

I would also note that this article was authored by Stuart Hameroff, who is the co-proposer (along with Penrose) of Orch OR. That means that his rosey assessment of that controversial hypothesis is entirely to be expected and is in no way evidence this hypothesis’ wider acceptance within science.

So you are still exactly nowhere.

The rest of your blather appears to be simply further examples of your misinterpretation/exaggeration of (often speculative rather than empirical) articles.

This seems to be nothing more than ‘apologetics’, taking my earlier Lowest Common Denominator definition of this field as ‘bad arguments stated with utter confidence’.

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But again, whatever does it mean?

That Wheeler had some bent towards ‘natural teleology’ or maybe even pan-psychicism?

If you want anything deeper than that, I’d suggest that you read his work for himself. Or then again, given that I read somewhere that his ideas influenced Deepak Chopra, maybe that’s not such a great idea. :slight_smile:

I have already told you. Fossil discontuinties or lack of intermediates , molecular/phylogenetic dissimilarities, and genesis account.

(PDF) Strategies for More Clearly Delineating, Characterizing, and Inferring the Natural History of Baramins I: Establishing Baraminic Status, with Application to the Order Galliformes (Class: Aves) (researchgate.net)

Yes, My mistake. You are right. The HGT itself does not specifically or completely explain nested hierachical patterns but this does not mean the common design explanation does not explain it.

The Dependency graph of life by Winston will explains those patterns from a common design perspective and could potentially confirm that common design is a better explanation for those patterns. Baraminology could potentially do the same in the future:

New Paper: Common Design Trounces Common Descent for Diversity of Life | Detecting Design

This is probably because a prediction of their theory that suggests a “self-existent” mind created finite minds has not been confirmed yet. This is why I provided 5 lines of evidence supported by current literature that do show that a self-existent mind existed to create us. This leads me the other thing you said…

If your lack of expertise in these areas compel you to reject what I am saying without a detailed proper assessment, then we have reached an impasse in our discussion.

Is there anything else you feel is wrong with the case I presented or is missing within it (besides what you mentioned already) to the best of your knowledge?

There is no indication whatsoever that Penrose and Hameroff’s Orch OR predicts a “self-existent mind”, let alone that this mind “created finite mind”.

You are simply plucking claims out of thin air.

Let me correct this for you:

@Meerkat_SK5 has provided four (A, B, C & D) claims that are unsupported by the papers he cited for them.

Every one of your claims distorts and exaggerates the papers’ contents (and your parenthetical "I.e."s distorts and exaggerates them still further).

No @Meerkat_SK5. It is your complete and utter lack of expertise, combined with a complete inability to learn from criticism, that makes further “detailed” criticism pointless.

Based on several threads worth of evidence I consider you incapable of either accurately summarising the scientific evidence, or of distinguishing between good sources and bad.

That being so, I will hereafter try to limit my comments to merely noting that I do not think your conclusions are adequately (or in many cases at all) supported by your citations.

Given that you have yet again made “expertise” an issue, I would point out that the only physicist on this thread, @Spinosaurus-729, has said the following about your claims:

Yes, I know, you disagree with their criticism (and pretty near everybody else’s I would point out). But then what is your level of formal training in Physics to be claiming superior “expertise” to them (or even to my own 35yo first year University course in the subject, meagre expertise as that may be)?

Anything wrong? Just everything about it. :weary:

If you’re currently refusing to address several flaws absolutely fatal to your position, why bother asking if there are any other flaws? Fix the ones in question first!

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How can you tell when these discontinuities are artifactual and when they aren’t? And why should the Genesis account be informative? Are you a YEC like the authors you cite here? Was there a worldwide flood that killed off all the animals not on the ark?

Sorry, but “baraminology” is cargo cult science: it apes the forms of science but doesn’t do the actual work, tests no hypotheses but tries to support a foregone conclusion. It’s the opposite of science. That paper is just nonsense dressed up in a fancy bow.

But that removes your common design explanation for nested hierarchy. So now you grasp at another straw:

And that straw is equally faulty. Ewert’s paper (which you should reference rather than some creationist news story about it) has been discussed here many times, and it’s serious flaws have been pointed out. For one, the data are problematic. Second, the likelihood ratio test that determines goodness of fit is problematic, as it doesn’t seem to account for the over-parameterization of the dependency graph, though it claims to. Third, it doesn’t account for the consilience of other sorts of data than the presence/absence of gene families. Fourth, the “modules” are purely ad hoc, not logically required as in real dependency diagrams.

It could, but don’t hold your breath. All the current data are against it.

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Incidentally, it’s very sad to me to see that Jon Ahlquist, who had a big role in the early years of avian molecular systematics, working with Charles Sibley, has become a young-earth creationist.

How so? This sounds very subjective.

That’s not true. I have taken everyone’s critique very seriously including yours by changing my model in response to those critiques. Now, I do admit that my presentation of my theory has been complete garbage throughout most of my interactions on here, which is why I have been doing everything I can to take in everything you guys have said. But, if what you are saying is wrong or you don’t adequately respond to my latest changes of my theory, I am not going to just accept what you say simply because you are scientist. On the other hand, when I felt that your critiques were right on, I either abandoned the topic I created or dropped certain points I made and stopped mentioning them.
More importantly, I have even encouraged everybody to stay with it and follow through on their objection if they still felt my responses were not adequate.

So far, the only users who have consistently done all this throughout my time here is @Dan_Eastwood, @John_Harshman , and @Michael_Okoko.

No, it’s not about disagreeing and I did not ignore his response. When I asked him to elaborate on his assertions, I responded and addressed what he said every time and I am waiting for his latest response so we can continue our discourse.

Well, I don’t know more than you that’s for sure. But, I have been citing sources from experts in those fields to back up my arguments and claims.

I, for one, am greatly dissatisfied with your ability to follow through on any such attempted discussion. You ignore most objections and for the rest commonly just repeat your original claims.

That’s refreshing. But you just respond by adding a spritz of perfume to the garbage. I don’t think you’ve managed to understand the extent of the problems with your ideas.

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Do you suppose a poll of the other participants of this thread would find agreement to this sentiment?

What about the possibility that Tim is correct about things you insist he is wrong about? What if his point has been made clearly and you have refused to accept it any way?

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When did I ever suggest that Tim or anybody else in PS was wrong about whatever I argued?

I fail to see how his point was clearly made here…

"Every one of your claims distorts and exaggerates the papers’ contents (and your parenthetical "I.e.“s distorts and exaggerates them still further ).”

@Tim refuses to engage with my claims and actually show that they are a distortion or exaggeration after I made the effort to take the quotes from those sources to show how there is a consistency with my claims.

Care to take his place instead?

No, I am not. Those aspects of the Baramin method I reject and don’t hold to at all. I am expecting RTB’s model to have a model that does not have those constraints involving a Global flood or YEC.

I beg to differ, Nested hierarchy was used as evidence for a common design or archetype well before Darwin wrote his book. The question is “which one best explains it now?”

Well, we have to start somewhere, right? Unless you are suggesting that those methods fatal flaws that can’t be rectified in the future, Give it time. Winston specifically said himself that “The primary purpose of the current paper is to introduce this new hypothesis, with a goal of introducing
a foundation for future research.” The Dependency Graph of Life | Ewert | BIO-Complexity

There is also RTB who are working on something akin to this as well. Besides, you didn’t think one apologist was going to bring a fully worked out common design model.

I’m expecting RTB’s model to be vague and yet still in conflict with the actual data. At any rate you can’t use a nonexistent model as justification for anything.

You are quite confused about the history of systematics, as you are about most things. But forget history. Speak for yourself: how does common design explain nested hierarchy? (Just saying the words “common design” will not do.)

That’s exactly what I’m saying. In science, you don’t start with a conclusion and find justification for it. As for Ewert’s idea, I have mentioned several flaws, each of thim individually fatal.

What do you know of this?

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Okay, let me take your latest (A), not as an individual error, but as an example of a pervasive pattern of behavior:

  • Neither of these papers make any mention at all of digital information.

  • Neither of these papers claim that consciousness is non-local.

  • The first paper is a quantum experiment dealing with a single photon.

  • The closest the second paper comes is when it states:

Pi resonance implies a free electron (from carbon’s outermost pi orbital) shared between carbon atoms, either oscillating between the two (molecular orbital theory), or delocalized, ie, in quantum superposition within a pi electron resonance cloud covering both carbons (resonance theory).

  • Unless you are willing to claim that single photon or an electron is conscious (i.e. pan-psychicism), a claim that does not appear to exist in either paper, this in no way supports your contention.

  • Likewise you have no basis for equating the very limited non-locality of quantum effects with transcendence, which is defined as:

spec. Of the Deity: The attribute of being above and independent of the universe

(None of this, I would point out is in any way “subjective”.)

Yes, sometimes if we press the point hard enough, you will abandon individual “lines of evidence”, but then you repeat your behavior by again distorting and exaggerating the papers you cite in your replacement “lines of evidence”. This is (one of the reasons) why I said that you appear to be incapable of learning from criticism.

It is also what makes playing an endless game of whack-a-mole with your “lines of evidence” exhausting and frustrating.

This is why I suggested that you “reread carefully the sources you cite for each premise, and consider whether they precisely address that premise” – advice that you dismissed with a weak tu quoque.

It was also in an attempt to stem this apparently-endless flow of unsupported claims that I said:

Until you learn to limit your claims to what is adequately supported by the papers you cite, I have no interest whatsoever in playing further whack-a-mole with them.

First:

Second:

This is extremely dishonest. Quoting one line from a long comment, out of a long series of comments, and pretending it was the sum total of the evidence presented to you. A demonstration of your unwillingness to accept correction.

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Past behaviour suggests he not only can, but does so frequently that it should be assumed to be the case.

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The whole point of peer-review level criticism is to make sure the argument is correct and adequate (maybe not the conclusion itself). You don’t get to decide for yourself which criticisms are adequate. If you cannot convince the reviewers then you need to go find a different journal and hope the new reviewers aren’t so picky.

I am not going to just accept what you say simply because you are scientist.

Then perhaps you shouldn’t be asking scientists for their opinion in the first place. Reviewers often give helpful suggestions to improve an article, but it is never the reviewer’s responsibility to do the work for you.

That said, I don’t see any substantial changes from the last round. Perhaps you should give the topic a rest for a while.

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Okay then, I guess I fail at complying with YOUR rules in (A). What about B,C, and D though?

I don’t see how these are valid examples of me telling @Tim is flatout wrong with his objection. I am merely pointing out flaws and vagueness with his objections that he needs to address so I can properly decipher and respond to his objections. There is a difference.

I agree but I think you misunderstood what I meant by “adequately” respond.

Right. But, Tim did not do any of this at first. instead, this was the extent of this response…

Every one of your claims distorts and exaggerates the papers’ contents (and your parenthetical "I.e."s distorts and exaggerates them still further ).

Just a bunch of assertions without any detailed analysis. I asked him to elaborate and he did but only on one point.

@Meerkat_SK5, please CEASE AND DESIST quoting me out of context.

I explicitly prefaced that comment with:

Therefore I have already answered your question:

“What about B,C, and D though?”

What I clearly meant was that the same problem applies to those three claims that I identified with (A), the same problem I identified with your first post, the same problem I identified in your revised post, the same problem @John_Harshman has identified in your recent posts on this thread.

Your citations do not substantiate you claims.

As I said above:

So I will not provide “detailed” explanations as to why more of your endless supply of claims are not substantiated by your citations. Suffice it to say, they are of the form: “You claim X, your cited sources do not mention X.”

Finally, I would note that these are not “[MY] rules”, they are rules that appear to be understood by everybody except you on this thread, and appear to be ubiquitous in every form of scholarship I have come across. That you, an apologist, do not appear to consider yourself to be bound by these rules, I see as further evidence that apologetics is not a form of serious scholarship

If those are only Tim’s rules, and they don’t apply to you, then your B,C and D can be quickly and easily refuted.

For example:

This is simply untrue. Origin of life experiments have been successful without any human intervention at all.[1][2]

[1] The Impacts of a Multifaceted Prenatal Intervention on Human Capital Accumulation in Early Life | AEAweb.org
[2] Stantom & Folsom 2019 (deadline.com)

So either abandon claim D (and B and C) or admit that those aren’t just Tim’s rules, but yours too.

Your entire ‘theory’ is “just a bunch of assertions without any detailed analysis”, and you usually repeat rather than elaborate. Don’t criticise others when you are much worse.

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