William Lane Craig: What is Your Response to Ken Ham?

[swamidass (S. Joshua Swamidass)]

What did you like about it?

[Patrick]

I liked it in the same way I like Dr. Francis Collins explaining to anti-vaxxers why the COVID vaccine is important to take. Here we have two outstanding Christians, one a scientist and one a scientific minded theologian, both saying that science needs to be respected for seeking truth, scientists shouldn’t be vilified, and scientific knowledge can’t be just discarded because it goes against one’s sincerely held religious beliefs.

[ColtCorrea]

The castle analogy was a big display at the Creation Museum. My kids brought me over to see the display and ridiculed it. The whole experience was sad as it demonstrated a blatant attack on well established scientific evidence. It seemed, the whole museum was attacking science as if all scientist are intentionally arriving at conclusions specifically with the intent to undermine the Bible. This is far from truth and reality.

[Michelle (Michelle Ols)]

@thoughtful

But I think it is helpful to be aware of that article now and the cartoon updates, because it looks like saying that creation is the foundation of Christianity is a strawman of what he believes. Instead in the article he emphasizes it as a foundation for doctrine and biblical authority.

That’s where I think that Ken Ham is mistaken and used the cartoon to set up a false dichotomy that has done great damage to our culture and to the church. There are many Christians and theologians who take Biblical authority very seriously, much has been written on the topic, but they simply interpret Genesis differently than Ken Ham. Ken Ham either misunderstands or misrepresents WLC’s position.

@thoughtful

But what I really appreciate here, and I think WLC would too, is that the Spirit puts in all our hearts a desire to see others know Jesus. When we find common ground in that, that is where we can begin dialogue and find unity.

I agree. The common ground is our desire for others to know Jesus. So that would include understanding how each other’s positions may have drawn focus away from Jesus, and for us to think about which theological positions are nonnegotiable and which are negotiable

[swamidass (S. Joshua Swamidass)]

@ColtCorrea

The castle analogy was a big display at the Creation Museum.

Does anyone have a picture? [of the display at the creation museum]

@Joel_Duff @davidson @David_MacMillan ???

[Rumraket (Mikkel R.)]

One of the most philosophically confused pictures in human history.

[swamidass (S. Joshua Swamidass)]

What is so striking about this is that it does a disservice to everyone’s position in the conversation, including YECs.

[swamidass (S. Joshua Swamidass)]

To be clear though, I want to see a picture of the one at the creation museum/ ark encounter.

[thoughtful (Valerie (non-scientist))]

@swamidass

Does anyone have a picture?

Um…there were lots of pictures in the article I linked earlier in the thread in the post you responded to.

[swamidass (S. Joshua Swamidass)]

Yes I know. Which of those do you think is more defensible? I don’t think any of them are so.

And none of those pictures are from the ark encounter. Do you have one of those @thoughtful ?

[thoughtful (Valerie (non-scientist))]

@swamidass

And none of those pictures are from the ark encounter. Do you have one of those @thoughtful ?

I’ve never been there. Colt mentioned it was at the Creation Museum which is a different place than the Ark Encounter. I did a search and I can’t find any images of a display. Pretty much a search for the Creation Museum just gives photos of dinosaurs.

@swamidass

Yes I know. Which of those do you think is more defensible? I don’t think any of them are so.

I don’t particularly like any of them, though I wouldn’t approach them the same way you do. I think the most recent one is better than the others.

[Faizal_Ali]

@swamidass

WLC is a well known Christian that affirms evolutionary science (CAES). He holds a nuanced position, and does not consider himself an evolutionary creationist.

Maybe not in this thread, but could you perhaps clarify what you mean by these two terms? It still is not clear to me.

[Faizal_Ali]

@Rumraket

One of the most philosophically confused pictures in human history.

If I didn’t know otherwise, I would have thought that was a parody of the YEC position created by some Evolutionist.

[Faizal_Ali]

@BenKissling

The reason why YECs often require preconditions to engaging is because they are often asked to engage with trolls whose only purpose is to make fun of them. I would love to know what these preconditions are, but my guess would be they have something to do with reading certain works they’ve put out on their positions. Craig has demonstrated he doesn’t know and doesn’t care to know YEC positions on most issues and has blatantly misrepresented them at times, especially Sarfati. If I were Sarfati I would not engage publicly with Craig until he demonstrated an actual understanding of Sarfati’s positions and commits to not misrepresenting him.

The implication of your comment is that, in contrast, YEC’s generally have a good understanding of modern evolutionary theory.

Which is so wrong it’s actually kind of cute.

[Patrick]

This cartoon is OFFENSIVE. The study of evolutionary science by well trained and educated scientists does not lead to racism, euthanasia, family break-up, abortion, homosexual behavior, and pornography.

[Rumraket (Mikkel R.)]

Not to mention that some of those aren’t bad things anyway.

[Patrick]

@thoughtful

I’ve never been there

That’s good. Please promise me that you will never take your unborn child to such a terrible place.

[Patrick]

Yes, isn’t porn an essential service during COVID?

[Faizal_Ali]

@Patrick

This cartoon is OFFENSIVE. The study of evolutionary science by well trained and educated scientists does not lead to racism, euthanasia, family break-up, abortion, homosexual behavior, and pornography.

But why does it show the Christians snoozing, ineffectively shooting at the balloons, and firing on their own castle and flag? Is that some comment against non-YEC Christians?

[structureoftruth (Matthew Dickau)]

@Faizal_Ali

But why does it show the Christians snoozing, ineffectively shooting at the balloons, and firing on their own castle and flag? Is that some comment against non-YEC Christians?

Yes, I believe it is. So it is offensive to everyone but YECs.