So thanks for those who indulged this earlier conversation. "Waters" and "Dust" of Genesis 1 and Proverbs 8: Thoughts?
We mostly went through the “dust” of the Bible, but not the “waters.” But I’ve still been thinking about it. I’m about to drop my thoughts on you. It will be a long ride though (well worth it I hope) so strap in.
First, as I was typing the title for this, the forum said my topic was similar to this. Superfluid Dark Matter
Well, @swamidass shoot, if I could award Nobel prizes for science and theology, I’d certainly pick this theory as I was just about to drop this idea - emergent (that it existed first in creation) and virtual (I’m beginning to think virtual particles may just come a bubble of space with different dimensions than ours).
(I realize I’m redefining terms and your suggestion is really about an exotic particle or one in addition to the standard model, but I still see it as a similar suggestion.)
But let me explain what I think this has to do with theology first.
Notice “waters” exist on Day 1 in Genesis 1:2. “The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.”
Then Day 2, the waters were divided with an expanse in between. Genesis 1:6-8a: “And God said, “Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters. And God made the expanse and separated the waters that were under the expanse from the waters that were above the expanse. And it was so. And God called the expanse Heaven.”
Later we learn that the sun, moon and stars were set in this expanse: Genesis 1:14 “And God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night.”
So…those waters above the expanse are left out of the picture when Day 4 refers to the lights that are for signs, seasons, days, and years.
So we are out of luck learning about those waters? Nope I found out lots more fun passages to consider. Before I go there, I had been considering that the “waters” of Genesis 1:2 were some kind of primordial soup, maybe quark-gluon plasma. Something liquid and transparent.
Then I began doing more bible study to figure out what in the world the waters above the expanse are. But what else does something liquid and transparent sound like? Well to me, it sounded like superfluid dark matter. We sure can’t see it, it’s liquid-y Yes, I know dark matter is “dark” because it doesn’t reflect or absorb light; water does. Bear with me.
I first considered Psalm 148. I’m linking to the Hebrew because I think it’s crucial here. Psalm 148 Interlinear Bible
Note verse 4: Praise Him, you heavens of heavens, And you waters above the heavens!
What is the heaven of heavens? Is it the spiritual realm? Then I’m out of luck on dark matter. I was rooting for it. Then I came across 2 Corinthians 12:2-3. I had forgotten about these verses. They are odd. But they show there’s at least a third heaven and maybe equates it with with paradise depending on whether it’s referring to one man or two different ones! And that answered my question! Biblical cosmography is at least three heavens - the highest is the spiritual/paradise, then the heavens of heavens (the one above the expanse, dominated by waters; I’ll call it the second heaven) and then heaven that the sun, moon, and stars are set in.
So what to make of the lowest two heavens? Of course, the atheists here like to remind that in ancient cosmology heaven/firmament is a dome. I realized biblically…that’s close. But I think that for ancient and modern bible readers it is instead just our visible (to the eye) sky. The heaven of heaven is what’s beyond the visible sky that’s still in the physical realm. And for the writer of Psalm 148 to tell those waters in the second heaven to praise God, it’s not a stretch to think they must dominate the “invisible” heaven. I checked recent discoveries - knowledge of this invisible heaven is so recent with modern technology. We didn’t identify the Andromeda Galaxy until 1925, but it was a glimpse of the invisible heaven in my mind. Really, it’s crazy how recent. But when I realized fluid dark matter could be these waters of Genesis 1:6, I did a little happy dance. I was rooting for it. Hallelujah!
So yeah, I think the same “stuff” that was the basic building material, or very similar to it, is still out there in large quantities. It may change and grow just like everything on earth. But we already know it does! Things get clumpy you know…
More food for thought… As I was considering dark matter recently, something about the vacuum made me think perhaps dark matter has negative energy. (Also I like the idea anyway, it works well for YEC time scales).
Googled. I thought this proposal might have some merit. Bizarre 'dark fluid' with negative mass could dominate the universe
Funny, I read that Sabine Hossenfelder dislikes the idea, and I like her ideas on superfluid dark matter too. I think it’d take a lot to convince her negative energy has a reality.
But there seem to be lots of good reason to think it may be reality:
P.S. For those interested in other Bible passages referring to other Bible passages that refer to the second heaven:
- Deuteronomy 10:14: “Behold, to the Lord your God belong heaven and the heaven of heavens, the earth with all that is in it.”
- Kings 8:27: [Solomon’s dedications of the temple: “But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain You. How much less this temple which I have built!"
- Nehemiah 9:6: “You are the Lord, you alone. You have made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them; and you preserve all of them; and the host of heaven worships you."
- Psalm 104:3 He lays the beams of His upper chambers in the waters, Who makes the clouds His chariot, Who walks on the wings of the wind.
- Psalm 68:32:33: Sing to God, you kingdoms of the earth; Oh, sing praises to the Lord, Selah To Him who rides on the heaven of heavens, which were of old!
Indeed, He sends out His voice, a mighty voice."
PSS. For those that want a Bible study…there’s something very interesting going on with Psalm 68:33. Notice it’s similar to Psalm 104. But check out the Hebrew: Psalm 68:33 Interlinear: To him who is riding on the heavens of the heavens of old, Lo, He giveth with His voice a strong voice. The “of old” in Hebrew is the most ancient heavens. It might be talking about Day 4 of creation…but consider…maybe it’s talking about day 1. I explained to @Ashwin_s and maybe others here…I think these dark matter building blocks is what made up the universe - “the heavens and earth” referred to in Genesis 1. And maybe, just maybe even though Genesis 1:2 refers to the earth, and then the waters, because Genesis 1 Day 4 refers to the waters in the second heaven, the psalmist knew that the “earth” referred to the building blocks of earth AND the second heaven. Notice that it refers to the mighty voice of God. Maybe it’s referring to the Spirit of God hovering / riding the waters, and then God speaking the light into existence. And notice the similarity of these Psalms to Daniel 7:13 and then of course Jesus referring to Daniel. I’ve sung Psalm 68 in church as referring to Jesus’ ascension. Maybe all these passages are connecting creation, Jesus’ ascension, and his second coming.