When you are ready @pevaquark you can give this one a shot here. I hope that @jongarvey and @deuteroKJ will participate here too. It is import to keep in mind that there are range of theological models being proposed. We can point you to forum posts, and some published articles.
Much more is to come. There is now two books (@swamidass and @Andrew_Loke) , maybe three or four (@jongarvey and WLC) , in the works right now. @jack.collins has written on this already, as has Andrew Torrance and and @Andrew_Loke. Most recently @Andrew_Loke, @rcohlers, and I all did an event in Hong Kong too. I have an draft of the book which as been circulating for about 8 months now (Dabar Conference Paper Confidentially Available), and several more theologians and exegetes are joining the fray in the coming year.
If nothing else, the interest is high. A lot of people are engaging with good science, This something to be happy about, and encourage in more ways. You are welcome to join in too. Maybe you will find something of worth. Who knows?
With very modest assumptions regarding mugration rates, and without even involving any special directives by God, computer simulations show that the Adam/Eve founder couple can become a universal ancestral pair within just 2,000 years.
If a universal flood is assumed, it can happen even faster.
Everyone gets Adam/Eve ancestry by the time of the birth of Jesus.
That seems to be all that is required in theology. Would you like to know the argument why?
Also, can you explain your motivation here. Perhaps I am wrong, but it seems like you are rooting for this all to be a scientific and theological mess. The presumption in most of this is that we are don’t know what we are talking about. Why do you want us to be wrong? If that isn’t the right way to put, what is the right way?
Theologically, it is a variant of the Homo divinius models often proposed by Catholics, such as for example Kenneth Kemp. We discussed this at length here: A Catholic Approach to the Genealogical Adam. Catholics, regardless, have many ways of coming to terms with evolution, so maybe it helps them, maybe not. I’m not sure how much it moves the ball forward for them.
Okay so by the time Paul was officially writing Romans (or sometime during the lifetime of Jesus) is when all humans alive would finally have some genealogical connection to a couple somewhere in the Mediterranean several thousand years before. But they wouldn’t have needed to be genealogically related to Adam and Eve for the thousands of years in between since Paul didn’t use the comparison yet found in Romans 5.
Also, the universalizing language is “to the ends of the earth” not “from the beginning of time.” In context, it is about decisions they are making right there and then about people on earth, and it was not a statement about the distant past. Before the New Testament, there is no theological reasoning that would require everyone must descend from Adam. So the universal claims are geographical, and bound to a temporal context.
So how do people groups like the Adamenese (ironic name given the discussion here) fit in here? Andamanese - Wikipedia If there were strong scientific evidence that some of the tribes on these islands have not had genetic interchange for 15,000 years or more are we to believe they do not have the image of God? Should we see any attempt to evangelize them as a waste of effort because they are not genealogical descendants of Adam?
Statistically speaking, it would be reaching the most obscure corners of population on Earth that would take the longest time… the parts not even recognized in the Table of Nations in Genesis 10.
“Any surviving genetics” but that still implies some genetic contact has been made even if evidence of that contact can’t be obtained. There is certainly evidence that these people have genetic ancestry long ago but contact since Adam was introduced “recently” into the world is the question? How do they become geneologically connected to Adam? If the answer is that we don’t need evidence then what is the point of arguing about a scientific model of origins at all. Not sure what I’m missing here. I want a recent real Adam but if the cost is that it requires lots of hand-waving I’m not sure I’m getting anything more than I just accept the Bible and don’t think about how it all might have happened.
Not actually an answer, that I can tell. Does that discussion cover Humani Generis? And if so, does it hinge on the definition of “true human”?
OK, I’ve looked. It seems like you are forced into a lot of equivocation on a number of terms in order to fit anything other than genetic Adam into Humani Generis, among them “man” and “sole”. Of course, I think you do the same with Genesis, but this is, if anything, a clearer conflict.
You write: “Okay so by the time Paul was officially writing Romans (or sometime during the lifetime of Jesus) is when all humans alive would finally have some genealogical connection to a couple somewhere in the Mediterranean several thousand years before. But they wouldn’t have needed to be genealogically related to Adam and Eve for the thousands of years in between since Paul didn’t use the comparison yet found in Romans 5.”
In fact, Pevaquark, it is only with Genealogical Adam that we are in a position to suggest (but to suggest only with the most gentle of proddings) that this might explain virtually inexplicable delay in the arrival of the Messiah that is said to be predicted so precisely and urgently by the Old Testament. Why would God wait for such a vital development? The usual answers can just as easily include (along with the usual apologia) the idea that all of humanity had not yet been embraced by Adam’s genealogical authority.
@Joel_Duff what evidence is there for totally genealogical isolation for over 3000 years? 5000 years? 8000 years? What published genetic studies demonstrate absolutely no mixing over that time range? What type of evidence could even in principle demonstrate this?
If you have no evidence, what precisely is the objection?
Don’t get so scared you might be wrong. I asked " If there were strong scientific evidence that some of the tribes on these islands have not had genetic interchange for 15,000 years or more are we to believe they do not have the image of God?" Its difficult, unproductive and generally makes one feel like not contributing when one asks a question and all that comes back are questions. The question really was if such evidence be a problem for GA? If yes, one could still ask if such evidence exists and how strong that evidence might be but the first question is really about what evidence would possibly falsify, or at least cast great doubt or require adjustment to the hypothesis.
But to your question. Why is it unreasonable to suppose that there could be people groups that have been isolated for 10,000+ years? In the case of the Adamese we can’t be sure since genetic studies have not been done but its not an unreasonable hypothesis. You should expect this sort of reaction from any secular scientist confronting the GA hypothesis the first time and your response would not be a peaceful way of stimulating further dialogue. but I might just flip it around and say what evidence do you have that this is not the case?
There is a known history of contact in recorded history.
The reasons for their isolation do not extend that far back in history, and human culture is not stable over millinea. An isolated tribe would need to be totally isolated trough changing external factors, generation after generation, somehow overcoming a pervasive human trait of socializing and exploring. It defies my imagination to envision this with out dramatically altering our understanding of human nature.
Every time we have look at whole genomes of supposedly isolated groups, every time, we find the isolation was mythology, disproven with direct evidence.
Short of science fiction scenarios, it is hard to envision strong evidence against mixing in the distant past.
Nearly every ancient DNA study shows heretofore unknown mixing in the past, often over longer distances than imagined.
If a scenario like this arose (A Science Fiction Riddle) many theological questions would arise. It is something at this level that would raise questions. Even then, i would fall back on CS lewis’s Religion and Rocketry, put forward the best ID argument ever, and note that Scripture says “to the ends of the Earth, not the ends of the galaxy.”