Swamidass on The Bible Project

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The genealogical account does not prove [Adam and Eve’s existence], but it’s impossible to disprove the existence of such a couple 6,000 years ago. … Everyone has had a false presupposition that science will tell us about Adam and Eve. It just turns out to be a very reasonable supposition that’s false. This really alters the conversation because you can affirm all of evolutionary science and that doesn’t actually conflict with a literal reading of Genesis.

KEY TAKEAWAYS

  • Among followers of Jesus, there is consensus that life did not begin randomly, by chance, or apart from intelligent design. However there is considerable difference in opinion as to how God orchestrated the origins of the universe and human life.

  • There’s ultimately no way to determine a person’s ancestry through genetics beyond a few generations. That certainly leaves a question mark as to the genetic origins of human life. Did all humans descend from Adam and Eve? Did some evolve by other means? Is there a third option? Genesis doesn’t answer all our questions, and that’s part of its beauty. It leaves space for us to wonder.

  • The main themes of the Bible fit into many church and theological traditions, and there’s intention to that. There’s something prophetic about the diversity of the church—God has many things to communicate to his people through a myriad of mediums.

Science and the Bible—An Age-Old Conflict?

In part one (0-20:40), Tim and Jon introduce Dr. S. Joshua Swamidass, a physician, scientist, and researcher at Washington University in St. Louis.

As a student, Joshua struggled to reconcile what he was told Scripture said with what he was learning about the origins of the world. He began to research how the Bible’s original audience understood Genesis and how Christian theologians throughout history have varied in their interpretation of Genesis. Through this work, he came to realize the Bible itself is not in conflict with science but that some human interpretations of the Bible are.

The most prevalent interpretation of Genesis 1 and 2 is that all humans descended from Adam and Eve. Evolutionary science suggests humans share ancestors with animals. These two views have produced significant debate for decades, including among followers of Jesus.

Joshua’s book, The Genealogical Adam and Eve: The Surprising Science of Universal Ancestry, explores the idea that a literal interpretation of the Bible and evolutionary science could both be true at the same time. (His argument is neither in favor of nor opposed to evolutionary science. Instead, he wrote the book as a service to church communities seeking to clarify these polarizing viewpoints.)

Genetics Versus Genealogies

In part two (20:40-35:00), Tim and Jon ask Joshua to share some of the research that reoriented his perspective on the human origins debate.

Among followers of Jesus, there is consensus that life did not begin randomly, by chance, or apart from intelligent design. However there is considerable difference in opinion as to how God orchestrated the origins of the universe and human life.

Genesis doesn’t answer all our questions. What was happening outside the garden? Were there other humans beyond the garden before Adam and Eve’s exile in Genesis 3. Genesis is silent on these and other questions, and that’s part of its beauty. It leaves space and silence for us to wonder.

Joshua’s research has led him to make a distinction between genealogical ancestry and genetic ancestry. For example, each of our parents is 100% our genealogical ancestor. But neither of our parents is 100% our genetic ancestor because they each contribute to only half of our DNA. If you go back to grandparents or great-grandparents, you’ll find people in your family tree who are still 100% connected to you genealogically, but only fractionally connected to you genetically. Go back a few hundred years, and that genetic connection decreases to zero.

Because of this, there’s ultimately no way to determine a person’s ancestry through genetics beyond a few generations. That certainly leaves a question mark as to the genetic origins of human life. Did all humans descend from Adam and Eve? Did some evolve by other means? Is there a third option?

What Is a Human?

In part three (35:00-47:30), the team discusses why these two approaches to thinking about ancestry are significant.

To answer the question, “Where did humans come from?” Joshua posits that we first have to agree on a definition of “human.” Scientists can’t agree on a scientific definition of human, and even if they did, how could it compare to a biblical definition of what a human is? If scientists and theologians are using the term human in different ways, this removes at least some of the seeming conflict between the Bible and science. They’re addressing two different things altogether.

The science of genealogical ancestry allows for the possibility that a single couple (Adam and Eve) could become the parents of an entire population of people in less than 4,000 years. And scientists would not expect to see DNA proof of that ancestry since genetic connections break down after just a few generations.

However, it’s also possible there were people outside the garden itself with whom Adam and Eve’s descendants intermarried—the Bible doesn’t tell us. If that were true, then both sides of the debate would hold: evolutionary science would be credible, and Adam and Eve would be the ancestors of all humanity.

So evolutionary science and a literal interpretation of Genesis are not necessarily in conflict.

A False Dilemma

In part four (47:30-59:00), Tim, Jon, and Joshua further explore the seeming conflict between evolutionary science and creationism.

Because of the way genetic connections disappear across generations, there’s no way to disprove either that Adam and Eve existed or that they were the first humans. This is significant because it shows you cannot invalidate a literal reading of Genesis. In short, rejecting either Christianity or evolution only on the basis of the apparent conflict between the two is a false dilemma. Genesis and evolutionary science each leave room for the other to be true.

To Joshua, the argument between the two viewpoints is irrelevant. Like the similar question, “How old is the earth?”, finding an answer doesn’t ultimately change anyone’s belief in biblical accuracy or their theological views.

Prophetic Diversity

In part five (59:00-end), the team addresses what genetic research means for doctrines of original sin, inherited by all of humanity from Adam and Eve.

The doctrine of original sin is not changed, as there’s nothing in the Bible that indicates sin is or has to be inherited genetically.

The main themes of the Bible fit into many church and theological traditions, and there’s intention to that. There’s something prophetic about the diversity of the church. God has many things to communicate to his people through a myriad of mediums.

Different views on human origins don’t have to lead to division among Christians. In fact, the differing views of various believers may lead to a fuller understanding of the truth.

Referenced Resources

  • Interested in more? Check out Tim’s library here.
  • Saint Augustine of Hippo, The Literal Meaning of Genesis
  • Dr. S. Joshua Swamidass, The Genealogical Adam and Eve: The Surprising Science of Universal Ancestry
  • William Lane Craig, In Quest of the Historical Adam: A Biblical and Scientific Exploration
  • David Reich, Who We Are and How We Got Here: Ancient DNA and the New Science of the Human Past
  • Dennis R. Venema and Scot McKnight, Adam and the Genome: Reading Scripture After Genetic Science
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I really enjoyed hearing you on the podcast. I typically enjoy the Bible project in general. The only thing I really disagreed with was that atheistic evolution versus theistic evolution ( or evolutionary creationism ) implies if God was involved or not. Such as I believe evolution is not by design or by God intervening. I think natural selection , gene mutations and cosmic events are all random. I don’t believe personally that God directed evolution or created us on purpose despite knowing all things. I just believe he reached out to us once we got to the stage of being receptive to it as a self aware intelligent being who could carry on conversations with him. But I would never say I am an atheist since I believe in God. I also don’t believe in deism either because I believe the Holy Spirit interacts with us and that a uninvolved God would not have sent his son and so on.

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@Skovand are you saying you believe in God but he wasn’t involved in creating us?

I’m saying I see no particular reason to believe that there is atheistic evolution or theistic evolution as far as God intervening and manipulating natural selection to guide the evolutionary process towards making us. I don’t believe God caused a asteroid to hit earth causing mass extinctions resulting in more mammalian speciation or that he manipulated gene mutations in ancient primates to create bipedalism and eventually our species and so on.

I guess I view it how I view prophecy. the Bible indicates that there was prophecies of Judas betraying Jesus and things like the potters field. So when I see that I feel two integrations arise.

  1. God literally created Judas and manipulated him to sell out Jesus. Which I guess could be possible based off of some integrations of romans 9 concerning how God raised up pharaoh as a vessel of wrath.

  2. Since God knows all things he knew that eventually a man , Judas, would betray Jesus and so it was written so that when it was fulfilled it was a testament to God.

I don’t think God necessarily manipulates free will or cosmic events but instead he foretells it. So I think God obviously knew humans would arise, but he did not manipulate all the events and mating habitats resulting in us ending up here.

Same as I don’t believe he sets up couples now making them fall in love so that one day the right kid will be born to do this or that. For example let’s say we do colonize Mars and are able to thrive there and a asteroid hits earth essentially wiping out all of humanity except for those in space and you jump ahead a million years and those descendants have evolved beyond what we consider our own species currently. I don’t think it would mean God orchestrated all of it.

I think that evolution was not the byproduct of supernatural forces directing it.

All I said was that by “evolution” I didn’t mean a “Godless process.”

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I could not tell. Ive seen many who believes that evolution was guided by God. Sort of like a intelligent design type process. I thought you were saying something along the lines of atheistic evolution versus theistic evolution as in Christians need to believe in a sort of god guided evolution. Something similar to a evolutionary fine tuning belief. Not that I’m against it, just that I don’t see any reason for it.

I had to go back and find it. At 21:36-50 when you said that as Christians we believe that it’s not random that God was involved somehow I was hearing it as saying that evolution was a god guided process and not random as a way of erasing natural selection in favor of some sort of supernatural process. I guess I’m just fixating on it incorrectly or something. Either way I was just wanting to state that I don’t believe that there is a war between how theists interpret evolution versus atheists. Evolution does not require a supernatural guiding process and can be by chance and random and that just because of that it does not erase God.

Your perspective seems to fit with the idea of Molinism, as a way to integrate God’s sovereignty with the free will of humans

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In some ways. Ultimately I think many old terms just carry to much baggage. It’s easier to just say that what I believe in is that God knows all things and that we have free will.

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That’s fine, but it doesn’t answer the question of how these seemingly contradictory ideas fit together. Molinism is one way of showing that they are not in conflict.

There is nothing that contradicts.

A supreme being who knows all things including the future does not undermine free will. Just that he already knows what choices we make. That’s not the same as controlling our choices. Just because God knew Pharaoh was going to be evil towards the Jews does not mean he forced him. Not even if he further hardened his heart to where pharaoh did even more evil so that God could make him a vessel of wrath. God is not hardening the hearts of good humans. He’s not forcing people to do anything. He just simply knows what choices we make because he operates in a way we cannot. Neither idea is an area of theological contention.

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