How are wave functions not natural? Are the results of Young’s double slit experiment caused by divine interactions?
Emitting a photon produces new wave functions which you describe as digital information, so it would appear that nearly all matter above absolute zero is naturally producing new digital information all of the time.
No, they are natural. Just not made out of matter and energy.
No
No, matter and energy is being created and manifested from digital information. You really should watch the two videos I gave Dan on this subject.
Sorry, but you can’t sidestep falsifiability by throwing QM in as a ruse, or any other shenanigans for that matter. Divine action is beyond the scope of science, and you claim it can be falsified? No.
I claim no particular knowledge of QM, but I’d wager my knowledge of statistics and probability gives me a better base understanding than your video tutorial. I do have considerable knowledge of framing hypotheses for hypothesis testing, and also information theory (a close cousin of statistical theory), which has been the basis of my criticisms from the start.
This is very strange statement. If there was no information then how was the experiment analyzed? ** You keep using “digital” as if it’s some sort of magic word - It isn’t. My educated guess is you are using a lay persons informal definition of information, not a mathematical definition.
** In fact the Miller-Urey experiment formed organic compounds abiologically as hypothesized. This isn’t directly relevant to the current discussion except to note that, if the experiment had not formed organic compounds, the hypothesis would have been falsified.
You really haven’t. Ever.
I believe that this is known in the trade as “going full Deepak”.
You know what. I think I am just being careless with terms again. My apologies.
I am going to define some terms to make sure we stay on the same page this time. Instead of Divine action or intelligence, I am going to refer to God as a quantum mind, which is a spaceless timeless immaterial personal cause, but let me elaborate on this definition. For instance,
Things that don’t have defined locations in space and time don’t exist in space and time because it stems from the definition of what space-time are. Since space and time have been shown to be interwoven concepts and matter/energy cannot exist without space-time, Something that is considered tenseless would have to be understood as non-local, which is NOT classical space-time involving general relativity.
An example of an non-local entity are wave-functions or quantum states. For instance, the universal wave-function represents the totality of existence and is regarded as the “basic physical entity” or “the fundamental entity, obeying at all times a deterministic wave equation.” (Wikipedia) In other words, they are possible configurations of matter or a universe in the form of mathematical equations.
Now, let me breakdown causation and time. There are two different types of causal interactions in nature: antecedent causation and simultaneous causation. Antecedent causation is where every event precedes another event in time because they are material causes that operate under the principles of classical physics.
On the other hand, simultaneous causation is where the cause exists with the effect inside the same event because they are non-local causes that operate under the principles of quantum physics (i.e. quantum entanglement).
An example of an non-local cause is a conscious choice from a mind, which would be a “collapse of the wave-function” , scientifically speaking. For example, This universal wave function is supposed to be non-local and generates classical space-time constituents, which means that the wave-function existed prior to space-time emerging , but it was not rendered in physical reality before a quantum mind observed. So the wave-function is still there and it is real but it is not physically there until we look and it manifests into a particle.
To sum it all, God is defined as a self-collapsing universal wave-function, which would also be a spaceless timeless immaterial personal cause or a quantum mind.
I was referring to information theory. From wikipedia:
“Digital data , in information theory and information systems, is information represented as a string of discrete symbols each of which can take on one of only a finite number of values from some alphabet, such as letters or digits. An example is a text document, which consists of a string of alphanumeric characters . The most common form of digital data in modern information systems is binary data , which is represented by a string of binary digits (bits) each of which can have one of two values, either 0 or 1.”
"Even though digital signals are generally associated with the binary electronic digital systems used in modern electronics and computing, digital systems are actually ancient, and need not be binary or electronic.
Alright, let’s try this again shall we…
“A proposition is said to be necessary if it could not have failed to be the case.”
Metaphysical necessity - Wikipedia
A quantum mind must exist to create life on earth
Or
God created life on earth
Here is an experiment showing how life was created without a quantum mind.
Alright, why does this construction not work?
It did not seem like the framing of my hypothesis was the issue in your last response. Let’s double check though. Please tell me how you are defining “material” evidence and “divine” action.
Ah, when you posted that, I was about to say more or less the same. Clearly the Universal Quantum Intelligence has linked our minds. Should we go get a beer or something to celebrate?
Yep, that’s it, all right. I think I read something like this in Ageless Body, Timeless Tropes by the Great Man himself. I shall always treasure the six word summary of Deepak Chopra by Julia Sweeney which, alas, is probably not repeatable here but may be found in her show “Letting Go of God.”
The Lenski experiment produced modified genomes. So based on this definition it produced new digital information.
Electrons don’t have “definite” locations in spacetime, but they exist. Furthermore, the definition of spacetime has nothing to do with the exact location of objects. Spacetime is a model that marries the the three dimensions of space (x, y, z) with fourth dimension, time. You mangle biology, now physics too.
I think you have it backwards. As per the theory of relativity, spacetime cannot exist without matter and energy.
A wavefunction is a mathematical function used to specify quantum state. It is not an entity, so ascribing to it the property of non-local is inappropriate.
At the quantum level AFAIK, A causes B and B causes A at the same time. If God is A and B is us, I guess you can figure out the logical consequences. In addition, I think this has nothing to do with quantum entanglement.
I make conscious choices with my mind everyday, but it doesn’t cause anything (asides spiking my blood pressure a bit) until I physically interact with the world. There are no examples of non-local causation due to a conscious mind.
The wavefunction is a mathematical equation and its describes the state of quantum systems. It doesn’t generate “classical spacetime constituents” and its not local or non-local because it is not a physical entity.
Nope, we created the concept of a wavefunction to describe the state of quantum systems. Without us, it wouldn’t exist.
Nonsense.
This is a wavefunction in the picture below. Does that look like something that could turn “into a particle”?
Taken from here:
So you are saying God is a mathematical equation. Just great.
I don’t see why a quantized mind must exist to create life. If its based on the preceding things you said, then you have established nothing but outright nonsense
Then show me a wave function that is independent of matter and energy.
Matter is already there, and energy is already present in the matter and being emitted.
You don’t seem to understand the basics of quantum mechanics, so what good would the video do?
Wave-functions are not just a useful fiction but an actual fundamental part of objective reality. BTW, both the genetic code and wave-functions involve Shannon information as well. You can watch this video from 0:00 to 11:30 for all the evidence, but I recommend you watch the whole thing based on what I read on your response:
This doesn’t help. Moving your goalposts in to QM does not address the problem of falsification. What possible evidence could confirm your hypothesis, and what possible evidence would refute it? It’s not possible to refute divine (supernatural) action.
That will do nicely. You are conflating the creation of information with the creation of DNA. That’s not the only way that information can be coded. Further, “bits” and “digital” are human labels/units of convenience. “Digital information” was not created, “Information” was created and can be coded digitally. ANY information can be coded digitally.
Humans creating life does not exclude the possibility a QM (God) also creating life. God is sufficient, but may not be necessary. To prove divine necessity would require access to a helpful divinity for testing, which is beyond the realm of science. If such a divinity wish to provide proof of their existence, they could easily do so without going through all this silliness. A mischievous divinity might provide disproof of their existence and we would be none the wiser.
Then it seems you have not understood my criticisms. I don’t think I can define thing any better than I already have.
This is your hypothesis, and obviously you will not be satisfied until you can fully understand it for yourself. Good scientific hypotheses can usually be stated in a single simple sentence (definitions may be longer). My advice is to simplify: Break the question down into smaller pieces until it cannot be made simpler, then build it back up one piece at a time. Question every assumption along the way, because a test of a hypothesis is also a test of your assumptions.
Strawman! I never called or implied wavefunctions are “useful fiction”. I clearly stated they were mathematical equations that allowed us to compute the state of a quantum system. It can be used to calculate the probability of finding an electron within a given volume of space, for example.
Of what relevance is Shannon information to a wavefunction?
My response, AFAIK, is line with the current understanding of quantum mechanics. That you find it wanting indicates you misunderstand some fairly simple concepts related to it. For example, you think a wavefunction is an entity, but that is wrong. Its an equation, like the equations of Newton’s laws of motion.
Random mutations can also add Shannon information to a genetic sequence.
Moving the goalpost! ??? No, I am just making sure we understand each other better. You even said yourself that PS’s goal is to establish Common Ground for understanding each other.
Now, what I am about to tell you is something I mentioned to you before in previous topics. If you did not read it last time around, then I am really going to need you to read it this time. Otherwise, I don’t see how we will be able to move forward in our conversation. I will try to be clear and concise this time around.
One of the two biggest reasons why people believe God cannot be a scientific hypothesis is the false presupposition of materialism or substance dualism. Most people often forget or don’t realize that there is a third option: Idealism . Let me bring some context before I elaborate on this:
What is Objective Reality?
Realism is the view point that external things are real and exist independently of mind in the form of either materialism or idealism. Naturalism is the viewpoint that only natural laws and forces govern the structure and behavior of the natural world, and that the changing universe is at every stage a product of these laws in the form of either materialism or idealism.
Materialism is the viewpoint that material things shape our ideas and ideologies. In contrast, idealism states that ideas come first and then changes in material things are consciously pursued in accordance with those ideas.
Substance dualism is the view that material things and ideas are both fundamental substances of existence (I.e. supernatural vs natural). Furthermore, this viewpoint states that the mental can exist outside of the body, and the body cannot. Where the immortal souls occupy an independent realm of existence distinct from that of the physical world.
However, Substance dualism is unparsimonius and untestable while materialism has been disconfirmed so many times by experiments that a consensus on the matter has developed [just ask for reference]. This leaves us with a form of idealism that places wave-functions and human consciousness as representing objective reality where space-time is influenced and emerges from.
Therefore, when you say things like “It’s not possible to refute divine (supernatural) action”, all you are doing is attacking a strawman because the natural vs supernatural dichotomy is a hallmark of substance dualism. But, I am arguing for idealism where there is only one substance and one reality that exists, which would fundamentally be a Quantum reality.
I am not sure I understand what you were suggesting here.
I think I see what you are trying to argue now. Another user made a similar objection when he said…If ‘God moves in mysterious way’, how can we tell if the hypothesis is disproven, or if God is just being mysterious again?
As I told @Tim, God’s actions would only be unconstrained like this in regards to his relationship with mankind NOT with his relationship with nature and the animal kingdom.
If you insist otherwise, then what is the basis for this claim on your end.
Well, I was not necessarily trying to provide a novel scientific hypothesis from an original research standpoint within this topic. Instead, it was constructed as more of a review article where I accumulate the results of many different articles on a particular topic into a coherent narrative to argue that current literature already supports how a quantum mind must have created life/viruses on earth.
I just trying to show that “digital information” can either mean or involve mathematics or linguistics and encompasses both.
Well, it’s both. If you say otherwise, then it’s clear you did not watch the video.
Oops the wavefunction is a function not an equation, my bad and it is not like Newton’s laws of motion which are equations. The wavefunction is a function that satisfies the Schrödinger wave equation.
Its worth reiterating that a wavefunction provides a mathematical description of a quantum system. I think there is some debate on whether it describes an actual physical object or just probabilities. @dga471 might be able to give us the specialist touch here.
Yes, and I can remember being thoroughly unconvinced by you at the time. If you wish to convince @Dan_Eastwood on this issue, I’d suggest that you need to do a better job.
How did you come to the conclusion that the video is correct and @Michael_Okoko is not?
Or, of course, @Michael_Okoko is right and the video is wrong. Since he is right, that seems more likely.
@Meerkat_SK5 : It should be clear that you aren’t communicating anything to anyone here. Is it possible that the problem lies with you rather than with everyone else?
